Denominational Issues

[StolzerandSons]

Sorry guy, Martin started it all regardless of your beliefe. There were no IFB's prior to the reformation, it's where the break up all started, and is still going on!

You trying to tell us that all these denominationals exited prior to the reformation, Give me a break.

Prove it here with links to support your thinking!

This right here goes to the exact questions the OP was asking. You believe that the Catholic church has told you the only history of all the churches but as I said using IFBs as a single example but certainly not the only example, other churches don't accept or believe the Catholic version of church history. You responded in the exact way that creates the divisions found among Christians.

I am not IFB, I was just using them as an example to show that what you said is one of the ways we ended up with many denominations so I really don't have a cause to try to prove anything but since I know you won't let this go I will provide you with two references and you can research it for yourself or not as you see fit.

The Story of the Baptists in all Ages and Countries - Rev. Richard B. Cook D.D.
https://books.google.com/books?id=_Y...page&q&f=false

The Trail of Blood by J.M. Carroll
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books...jm_carroll.htm

BTW if it all started with Luther then would you please explain the Greek Orthodox(Eastern Orthodox) split that happened almost 500 years before Luther? Again this is just one example of a pre-Luther denomination, I can show you many others.

[DCP]

This right here goes to the exact questions the OP was asking. You believe that the Catholic church has told you the only history of all the churches but as I said using IFBs as a single example but certainly not the only example, other churches don't accept or believe the Catholic version of church history. You responded in the exact way that creates the divisions found among Christians.

I am not IFB, I was just using them as an example to show that what you said is one of the ways we ended up with many denominations so I really don't have a cause to try to prove anything but since I know you won't let this go I will provide you with two references and you can research it for yourself or not as you see fit.

The Story of the Baptists in all Ages and Countries - Rev. Richard B. Cook D.D.
https://books.google.com/books?id=_Y...page&q&f=false

The Trail of Blood by J.M. Carroll
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books...jm_carroll.htm

BTW if it all started with Luther then would you please explain the Greek Orthodox(Eastern Orthodox) split that happened almost 500 years before Luther? Again this is just one example of a pre-Luther denomination, I can show you many others.

Did you even read this

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_den1.htm


I believe the Greek Orthodox(Eastern Orthodox) is not considered Protestant

Last I am not Roman Catholic

[TRM]

Denomination theology. There won't be any baptist, Catholic ,Lutheran or any other denominations in heaven. If yout not washed in the blood your not going...

[jcwit]

Denomination theology. There won't be any baptist, Catholic ,Lutheran or any other denominations in heaven. If yout not washed in the blood your not going...

This is true!

[jcwit]

There were Baptist before the reformation. They were known as Anti-baptist because they did not believe that baptism and church membership was equal to salvation. The Catholic Church sprinkles you and you become a member of the church. That with following church doctrine gets you into heaven.
The Baptists were persecuted along with the Jews during the Inquisition. A good book on the subject is "The Trail of Blood".

Wrong!

Martin Luther started the reformation in 1517!

The Anti Baptist was started in 1525 by Felix Mantz!

Look it up easy to find, took me less that 30 seconds.

The teaching of the Catholic has nothing to do with the facts!

Little do you know what is required to become a member of the Catholic Church! Lot more than being sprinkled on ones head. Never have been Baptised in the Catholic Church, was Baptised in the Lutheran Church 74 years ago, I guess anyway, so says the records!

[StolzerandSons]

Did you even read this

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_den1.htm


I believe the Greek Orthodox(Eastern Orthodox) is not considered Protestant

Last I am not Roman Catholic

Perhaps you read the title of the thread wrong, we aren't discussing Protestant versus Catholic we are talking about different denominations, so yes Greek Orthodox(Eastern Orthodox) falls under the category of a denomination.

To answer your question yes I read it and it is grossly incomplete on church denominational history and proves nothing. First it says that the Catholic Church started circa 30 when that can't be historically proven. Even the historians that stretch it a bit only give a date of the early 300's and most documented sources say the mid 400's then it jumps to Lutherans in 1517...kind of leaves out some of the major points of history don't you think? I think there might have been a few people who believed differently before Luther or did the Inquisition start in 12th century France because the Catholic Church thought it would be a good idea to persecute everyone who already believed what they believed?

[Char-Gar]

Human nature is a tough nut to crack. The Jews in Jesus time were divided in theology and doctrine. The early Christian church also quickly divided in theology and doctrine. There was an attempt to codify into a common understanding the basic tenants of the Christian faith in the early Nicean creed.

Despite an attempt to have a common theology and doctrine and one church, human continue to divide and divide again over theology and doctrine. That is the nature of the human being.

If Christians of all stripes are to live in harmony with each other, as they are instructed to do, that requires a think and let think approach without judgment, condemnation or hostility. When judgment, condemnation and hostility emerges from difference, that dear friends is indeed the work of Satan.

Most likely, this thread will devolve into conflict, hissing and spitting at each other. Satan will enjoy following this thread.

[1johnlb]

As we all know there are several issues/subjects that well studied people of the Bible disagree upon. I don't want to discuss the issues themselves but why there is disagreement among believers?
Should not Bible believing Christians be very close in agreement on these topics? Do you believe that one side is right and the other side wrong?
Is it a tool of the Devil to keep Christians divided over issues?
Why are people so strong natured about their beliefs?
The Bible says we should study and be guided by the Holy Spirit,then why is there diverse opinion on subjects?

Why a difference? religion instead of a relationship

Religion is the search for God, polluted with leaven, always making up excuses why parts of scripture is flawed or doesn't happen today, because it doesn't happen in their building, calling everyone else that the scripture is fulfilled in sick or twisted. Religion gives you a 12 step program, to god and they never find Him. Jesus warned us of these people. Just because they have a belief doesn't mean they believe.

Relationship is based on having found Him or at least been found by Him. As the old song says, " He walks with me and He talks with me" . Even Jesus constantly seperated Himself from the crowds to relate and pray with the Father and IF Jesus is in you He still does.

If thechurch from your perspective doesn't look like New testament scripture, it maybe time to get a new perspective or at least allow the Holy Spirit to work through you to change it.

[popper]

The concept of a hell for people is a idea from pagan religions.

Uh, where did that come from? Scripturally, it's the 'outer darkness' 'lake of fire' 'hades', etc. genesis alludes to the same, (sic) gonna get tossed out the second time too. The reference of the rich man and poor man does indicate some temporary 'holding place'. Also alluded in other scripture references. It's ana baptist, not anti. My understanding (yes, married a Catholic) that non-protestants (and some protestants) believe it is a spiritual 'protection blessing', not a believer's baptism. Luther's argument was against purgatory and payment to make it easier for the deceased. I was sprinkled, Believer's Baptism as a kid, immersed as an adult. None made me a member of any 'club'. Only accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior.

[bob33809]

I was Catholic for 60 years. Only last year did I find my true God, the one of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The different denominations are rules of men not Christ. All you need to to be received into the Kingdom of Heaven is to be born again. The Bible is what will give you the truth to reach Heaven. Jesus is the Light

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Thundarstick]

If Christians of all stripes are to live in harmony with each other, as they are instructed to do, that requires a think and let think approach without judgment, condemnation or hostility. When judgment, condemnation and hostility emerges from difference, that dear friends is indeed the work of Satan.

This! This! This!


I go where I go, worship were I do, and believe what I believe, because that is where the spirit leads me! This doesn't give me the rite to condemn anyone else. We're just not all in the same place at the same time.

[rl69]

man loves the law. It shows him how much better he is then his brother. Find which law you you like best and follow it. Then point out how much better you are then the ones who follow a diferent law. That what Christ taught right.

[Ickisrulz]

man loves the law. It shows him how much better he is then his brother. Find which law you you like best and follow it. Then point out how much better you are then the ones who follow a diferent law. That what Christ taught right.

When you say "law" I take it you mean rules to control behavior (impart guilt?) rather than basic doctrine?

Fortunately, I have never attended a church that was legalistic.

[Blackwater]

Human nature is a tough nut to crack. The Jews in Jesus time were divided in theology and doctrine. The early Christian church also quickly divided in theology and doctrine. There was an attempt to codify into a common understanding the basic tenants of the Christian faith in the early Nicean creed.

Despite an attempt to have a common theology and doctrine and one church, human continue to divide and divide again over theology and doctrine. That is the nature of the human being.

If Christians of all stripes are to live in harmony with each other, as they are instructed to do, that requires a think and let think approach without judgment, condemnation or hostility. When judgment, condemnation and hostility emerges from difference, that dear friends is indeed the work of Satan.

Most likely, this thread will devolve into conflict, hissing and spitting at each other. Satan will enjoy following this thread.

Amen, Char-Gar! It just seems our nature (not God's, but OURS!) to argue and separate ourselves. There may even be an element, great or small, in many, who want to think of themselves as the "elite" who have a TRUE understanding of our Lord.

But MHO is that Christ advised us to always be humble before Him and our fellow man as well, and being humble means we have to listen to our brothers and sisters, even if we think differently than they do. And it also, I think, means that we are to love them because they have faith. Not all realize when they're making even grievous mistakes in theology. But I suspect we all do. Even ME!!! But if we're simply humble enough to listen to our fellow believers, we may learn something to edify ourselves, and maybe ... just maybe .... find a way to edify them. But it requires listening ears on both sides, of course, and that's something we're not conditioned to do, and possibly, especially in these divisive times.

But any time we can bring ourselves to at least listen to others, with an intent to hear and perceive what they're saying, rather than to what we can make of it ..... well, then, I think we're doing the Lord's bidding to us, and probably, helping ourselves more than we'll ever help another. I hear lots of stuff that I either don't agree with or maybe don't understand fully. But I listen, nevertheless. How can I learn if I don't truly understand what a person means by what he's saying? And how can I help someone if I'm not SURE I know what he's meaning by his words? Very simply, I can't. And if we're to benefit from "studying to show thyself approved," as Christ admonished us to do, via discussion of differing perceptions, we MUST lend a real listening and discerning ear, and if we're not sure we understand, then it's incumbent upon us to ask questions until we DO understand what they mean by what they say.

Nothing is more common than we humans misunderstanding what others say. It's from this that we derive arguments so quickly and easily and consistently. We can come to understand each other, and even agree to disagree on some points, IF we simply use the advice Christ gave us to GAIN that understanding of each other. Arguing doesn't serve that end at all, and argument comes from OUR wills, and nature, and NOT from God's! I'd think this would be rather obvious.

We often, and maybe moreso now than ever, seem to prefer arguing to really understanding each other. Some of that may come, depending on the individual and the situation, from a feeling of inadequacy masquerading as "confidence" and "surety." That's certainly a common human trait! Some may come from simple impatience on our or others' parts. Arguments can come from many, many sources, but none of them really come from God. Christ himself taught us, or at least tried to, to seek truth. He did NOT encourage us to ASSUME that we already had it!

IMO, only the truly humble CAN really learn. A humble heart is, at least in my thinking and experience, the greatest source of edification and knowledge and wisdom that has ever existed. When we're humble, we're averse to simple argument, and don't get offended just because someone disagrees with us. This automatically makes it hard for us to become embroiled in a common argument, or from falling into one for our pleasure or to hide our uncertainties.

Theology is important, but being able to treat it with the proper respect, and acknowledge up front, that we'll all differ, is hard to do for us all. But it's always worthwhile .... pretty much like Christ said it'd be.

And FWIW, I believe that there's a whole lot of disagreement in theological principles in EVERY church that exists. Most have the simple good grace not to insist that everyone believe as they do. This is how good, successful churches grow and do the things that churches are supposed to do. I'm a Baptist, but there are certain tenets of traditional Baptist theology or practice that I am not terribly comfortable with, nor truly believe. But I'm humble enough to listen, and who knows? I may wind up changing my mind on some issue yet again, as I've done a number of times in the past, once God had prepared me to understand some tenet more fully.

We all change and learn as we go forward in life. But we have to LET that happen! I don't believe any of us will ever have the "Last Word" on any tenet that Christ tried so hard and so ably to teach us. It's we error prone "students" that have great trouble discerning His true meaning, sometimes, because we're so wrapped up in what we WANT it to mean. Only a pure heart can discern the Bible's true meaning. And who among us has an unblemished True Heart like Christ had? It certainly isn't ME!!! So how can I be anything BUT humble? What else could ever be appropriate for a poor sinner like me????

This is yet another of the many reasons I've long thought that humility (not mousiness, but true humility) was THE most prominent character trait of a real, mature Christian. I hate theological arguments, but sometimes, I just have to shrug, and realize that they may be necessary along the way to True Understanding. Maybe we have to EARN our understanding, and putting up with occasional arguments may be the price of admission to greater understanding???? If anyone has all the answers, let's hear them, because I certainly don't have them. But I'll be seeking them until I leave this earth, and I'll stay in a state of wonder and awe when I find some little something that hits me like a ton of bricks, when I've been prepared to receive it. Sure helps keep me humble!!!

[rl69]

I grew up in the Lutheran church. went threw the confermation classes,studied the bible,I received a good understanding of God. After I became man i started to search for my own way. I have found the biggest deference's in denominations is law. Not just " it's wrong for women to cut their hair" but " you have to be baptized to go to heaven"

In my search I have found Jesus Christ the reason for all of this. I'm not saying I have it all figured out but I know where I'm heading when he calls me home.

[jmort]

God has sent us teachers, like Paul. Why not listen to the teachers that God has sent us. I do not believe it is inherent that the Body of Christ be in dischord. Remember that Peter was convinced that non-Jews were sinners forever. Peter was led to change his opinion. Paul was sent to non-Jews. Once the dust settled, then neither Paul nor Peter were conflicted, but were of one accord. They knew and taught that there was but one Gospel and that changing it in any way was an abomination. There is but one Gospel, and we need to follow it. We should speak with one voice.

[Thundarstick]

Gal 2:11-12

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Is it because we, like Peter, fear the ridiculing of others?

[jmort]

This passage states that James feared for his life. Peter held false beliefs and God fixed that in short order by virtue of a dream.

[GhostHawk]

Man has had 2000 years to screw up religion. As usual he has done a dang fine job of it.

IMO legalistic views, splitting hairs, obsession with minor details all lead to fractures.

If you pick a bible, read what Jesus said, work on accepting him fully. All the rest of this is dross. It will all float to the top and be skimmed off on some day. Along with I suspect a lot of people who consider themselves christian but are really only trying for an hour on sunday. And maybe not that much then.

Proof I have none. Jesus loves us, this I know, the bible tells me it is so.
It is not our strength, or intelligence that will save us. It is his, and our belief in our Lord and his promises. Splitting hairs endlessly or debating the fine points seems to me to drive more people apart than it brings together.

If we are truly christian, we should understand our brothers well enough to forgive them before the need is there. If we can understand their confusion, pain, doubt, fear.
We can forgive them anything. And show them only love. Seems to me that is what Jesus was trying to say.

A wise man once told me "be prepared to forgive anyone you like at least 2 major faults. For if you are not willing to do so you will have no close friends"

I think it should be more than that. We should be willing to forgive a few for the Lord as well. Brother Blackwater I am going to pick on you here sir. Forgive me. Know that I love you.

But I don't love your run on wall of text posts. But I forgive them. And I read them anyway. I force myself to. How can I say I love you if I am not willing to hear you?


Same with denomination. It matters not to me if a person is Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Babtist, Morman, or Luthern. I have known people of all faiths who lived their life the very best they could. I have also seen some faiths break up familys and destroy homes. I have not a lot of faith in some of their members.

See my point? Done right, the other person never even knows. Because you forgive totally, with ever saying a word. If you want to call yourself a Christian.


I am pretty sure that I am not there yet. But I am trying Lord. I believe. To God be the glory.
But what do I know, I am just a self educated farm boy who stumbled into town and stayed.
I have made most of the mistakes in the book. Listen to your heart, it knows the way.

[Thundarstick]

Peter held false beliefs and God fixed that in short order

So they ALL didn't believe and teach the same thing until God fixed Peters thinking? IE someone gave up their thinking?