OK, let's talk about this copper thing (again, for the gazillionth time)

[aephilli822]

We're really not being mean. We want you to have fun and make good bullets. At one time or another we have all screwed something up but over thinking it.

I know. (and even if someone does intend to be mean I'm still gonna take it as just telling the truth while trying to help)

[aephilli822]

I ladle cast over a propane heat source and have found a couple little tricks for maintaining heat level. 1) a burner only as big as you need with a second small valve to regulate heat. 2) as big a pot as is feasible. ( I used a weed burner with 2 valves 1 on off one adjusting temp and 130lb pot) the added mass of the bigger pot makes maintaining heat levels easier. As to heat level try working up to around 750* this may help some also. Pre heat mould and may a short dip in the pot to bring up to temp. If lead sticks to it may not be hot enough yet.

thanks, good info

Between pours let the ladle sit filled in the pot to maintain its temp also. When starting make several "pours thru the ladle back into the pot even to get it hot.

Hey finally a couple things i did right!

I wouldn't recommend the water drop to start with as stated above it easier to deal with culls and see whats going on. Over pour the mould so there is run off back into the pot. Pour a full ladle into the mould sprue hole letting excess run back into pot. This helps keep the sprue plate hot and up to temp allowing for off gassing and full base fill out. Use the lyman ladle and if possible open the spout up to .205 dia or so. Cadence makes a big difference also so When casting cast when sorting sort don't try to combine the 2. Your alloy with the copper and tin added may require a fast cadence to keep everything up to temp also. As to sizing I'm not sure what your sizing the whole bullet or just the nose.

All this is going on the list for next time (when I melt all the wrinkles and see how hard they are not quenched)
Just sizing the nose. Softer alloy, no quench, different mold, recut throat (barrel's, not mine ) are all possibles that may be explored.

[aephilli822]

I'm thinking (do you smell smoke?) next time I wanna dissolve some copper, I'm gonna do it into a couple pounds each of just the tin ingot and solder first. This time I did everything but the pure together to get enough in the pot to work with and then started with the copper.

[OS OK]

You can get copper in the blend by using pewter...would that get you where you want?

[aephilli822]

You can get copper in the blend by using pewter...would that get you where you want?

That's one of the things I'm using, pewter ingots from swap&sell here on the forum, but without the extra copper, only comes out to .03%

[PBaholic]

When you first start casting, buy the lead already the way you want it. Smelting takes some time to learn, and is beyond the typical garage mechanics initial skill level. I kinda do my own smelting, in that I mix known alloys together to get a specific mix, but adding something like CU is beyond my ability. The pros don't simply melt CU into an existing alloy. They use other "solvents" to get it into a mix. The solvents are typically salts used for the express purpose of getting a metal to combine into an alloy.

Do you really need that hard of an alloy? A lot of people think they need BHN 16 alloy, as that is what other boolit manufactures are supplying. These boolit makers often use hard lead so that the product doesn't get damaged in shipping, not because you require a hard alloy.

I would start simpler, and just get some wheels weights. Melt them into something, like a muffin tin to get a useable cake. When you go to pour, get your alloy up to 700 degrees. Dip your molds in the lead to heat them up for a few minutes. Then start pouring. Dump your newly made boolits on towels, and learn the process of making proper boolits, even if they are the wrong hardness for what you need. This is a skill on itself, that takes time to understand. Your lead needs to be at a specific temp, as do your molds to get goot results. Also, your pouring technique needs to be honed.

Again, do you really need that hard of a boolit? Hard boolits can cause leading.

Early on, I needed a reliable way to determine the hardness of my alloys. I chose a technique that Brinell himself used for determining the hardness of alloys. He derived a calculation based on pressing a ball bearing into the material to determine its hardness.



I still use this technique, and it allows me to reliably measure Brinell Hardness to +/- 0.5 BHN. I can get better results by using a larger diameter point.

So far I'm into my 20th+ year in boolit making, and just discovering how alloys really mix, and what their hardness levels are over time. I was an engineer before retiring, and have read a lot on metalurgy, and discovered it's much more difficult than I could possibly understand.

[rockrat]

I have used lots of alloy just about what you have indicated, as far as composition. Yes, it is hard, try water quenching from the mold, you will see just what hard is!!!
I use the stuff up to about 2600 fps in a 357max without any problems and have no doubt you could do the same in an '06 with the correct twist barrel, without any problems. You could cut your alloy with WW's , about 1 part ww to two parts your alloy and still have a fairly tough alloy.
Oh, I have a bottom pour RCBS and run it at 720 degrees. At 700 degrees, the spout will tend to freeze up at times and I will have wrinkles

[aephilli822]

When you first start casting, buy the lead already the way you want it. Smelting takes some time to learn, and is beyond the typical garage mechanics initial skill level. I kinda do my own smelting, in that I mix known alloys together to get a specific mix, but adding something like CU is beyond my ability. The pros don't simply melt CU into an existing alloy. They use other "solvents" to get it into a mix. The solvents are typically salts used for the express purpose of getting a metal to combine into an alloy.

Do you really need that hard of an alloy? A lot of people think they need BHN 16 alloy, as that is what other boolit manufactures are supplying. These boolit makers often use hard lead so that the product doesn't get damaged in shipping, not because you require a hard alloy.

I would start simpler, and just get some wheels weights. Melt them into something, like a muffin tin to get a useable cake. When you go to pour, get your alloy up to 700 degrees. Dip your molds in the lead to heat them up for a few minutes. Then start pouring. Dump your newly made boolits on towels, and learn the process of making proper boolits, even if they are the wrong hardness for what you need. This is a skill on itself, that takes time to understand. Your lead needs to be at a specific temp, as do your molds to get goot results. Also, your pouring technique needs to be honed.

Again, do you really need that hard of a boolit? Hard boolits can cause leading.

Early on, I needed a reliable way to determine the hardness of my alloys. I chose a technique that Brinell himself used for determining the hardness of alloys. He derived a calculation based on pressing a ball bearing into the material to determine its hardness.



I still use this technique, and it allows me to reliably measure Brinell Hardness to +/- 0.5 BHN. I can get better results by using a larger diameter point.

So far I'm into my 20th+ year in boolit making, and just discovering how alloys really mix, and what their hardness levels are over time. I was an engineer before retiring, and have read a lot on metalurgy, and discovered it's much more difficult than I could possibly understand.

great info, thanks
i'll check these for hardness this weekend, just out of curiosity
No, probably don't "need" that hard, but why be reasonable?

[aephilli822]

I have used lots of alloy just about what you have indicated, as far as composition. Yes, it is hard, try water quenching from the mold, you will see just what hard is!!!

that's what I did, the really dumb part was when I thought I'd size them afterward

I use the stuff up to about 2600 fps in a 357max without any problems and have no doubt you could do the same in an '06 with the correct twist barrel, without any problems. You could cut your alloy with WW's , about 1 part ww to two parts your alloy and still have a fairly tough alloy.
Oh, I have a bottom pour RCBS and run it at 720 degrees. At 700 degrees, the spout will tend to freeze up at times and I will have wrinkles

thanks

[aephilli822]

so, does air cooling then heat treating them later make them "less hard" than quenching straight outta the mold?

[Dusty Bannister]

No, quenching by heat treating in an oven and then quenching is a more consistent method.

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

[aephilli822]

excellent
another reason that it would be best to melt them down and start over

Dusty, I can't thank you enough for your help and patience

[aephilli822]

great info, thanks
i'll check these for hardness this weekend, just out of curiosity
...

just noticed that scale only goes to 16, so may check after recasting, 'cause right now they are way harder than that

[PBaholic]

so, does air cooling then heat treating them later make them "less hard" than quenching straight outta the mold?

Nope. The last heat treating will set the hardness. That's why I no longer water drop. When I PC, I have to heat them to 400 degrees for 20 minutes, and they lose any heat treating.

[PBaholic]

just noticed that scale only goes to 16, so may check after recasting, 'cause right now they are way harder than that

That's just the scale I used. If the diameter is smaller, it's just harder:

0.100 = BHN 17.2
0.090 = BHN 21.4
0.080 = BHN 27.2

It gets too difficult to measure accurately when it gets really small, but you can just increase the diameter of the point, as this will increase your indent diameter as well.

[aephilli822]

Nope. The last heat treating will set the hardness. That's why I no longer water drop. When I PC, I have to heat them to 400 degrees for 20 minutes, and they lose any heat treating.

great, thanks
so if any look usable, i'll heat 'em and let 'em air cool

[aephilli822]

That's just the scale I used. If the diameter is smaller, it's just harder:

0.100 = BHN 17.2
0.090 = BHN 21.4
0.080 = BHN 27.2

It gets too difficult to measure accurately when it gets really small, but you can just increase the diameter of the point, as this will increase your indent diameter as well.

thanks, for the extra (excellent) info
i'll see what i can find out

[Oklahoma Rebel]

so if you are PC'ing at 400 degrees, can you not just quench them afterwards? 400-440 is what I HT at.

[popper]

If you h.t. 2% cu you get high 30 BHN. That is hard.

[Grmps]

so if you are PC'ing at 400 degrees, can you not just quench them afterwards? 400-440 is what I HT at.

You can WQ and get some benefit, but to get full benefits they need to be heated longer than standard bake time