Crazy talkin' going on in the head, ".38-40, you should!!"

[ANick57]

I can't think of a single sane reason to do so, but I got a bit of an itch.

Everything I've read says the .38-40 is a little PITA to get just right for a levergun, and if you get it right for that, it won't want to play nice in a wheel gun.

So, I keep throwing cold water at that squeaky little voice in my head. Nothing like cold, hard experiences of others to quench an itch!! Right???

There is something about that oddball thing that gets my goat. Don't know if it is the funny neck down, the circumstances that make a ".38" really .401, or the question of why it showed up at all, being so close in size to the actual size of the .44-40!!

It makes no sense at all and I guess that just jacks up the curiosity enough to make me listen to that darned voice.

It's just nuts. Right?!

[bouncer50]

38-40 and 44-40 were blackpowder at one time in the past over a 100 years ago. The 44-40 was 44 caliber and 40 grains of BP. The 38-40 is just a neck down 44-40 and the 38-40 is 38 grains of BP and a 40 caliber bullet. I have pistol in 38-40 and 44.40 but no rifles.

[oldhenry]

This thread stirred up some memories. I was fortunate enough in '60 to buy a '73 Winchester in .38-40 (aka 38WCF). It is a complete rifle.....no missing parts (dust cover and all). Amazingly it has a perfect shiny bore. It is the rifle model with 24" octagon bbl..
Factory ammo functioned perfectly. The factory round had a crimp below the boolit & a light crimp over the ogive. Ammo was expensive & I began casting to allow me to shoot it. My equipment was basic.............hand ladled from a Lyman cast iron pot with the Lyman cast iron aperture around the pot to direct the heat toward the pot. I had 2 single cavity "Ideal" molds that I tried to locate to respond to the thread. I found one: a #40143 (172 gr. rounded FP.....no crimp groove). The other was a SWC around 180 gr. with a crimp groove.
Here are the problems that I had:
1. The #40143 would function OK with 1 in the bbl. & 1 in the magazine. More than 1 in the magazine was iffy. The magazine spring pushed the bullets back into the case.
2. The other mold (also an "Ideal".....I think it was a #40188) solved the problem with #1, but the SWC lip caused another feeding problem. From a full magazine I'd shake the rifle when the round came out of the magazine to direct it into the chamber.
3. The .38-40 case is very weak. Anything but a light crimp would collapse the shoulder.

I've often wished for a .38-40 revolver (Ruger had a limited edition convertible .38-40/10mm once, but I was into H.P. shooting then). That SWC bullet would work fine in a revolver.

While searching for the other mold I found 100 Winchester cases in the original sealed box. With the molds available today I could get that '73 shooting.

I look forward to your experiment into this cartridge.

Henry

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Today I cast the .38-40 using Lyman's 401043. My .38-40 is about the most accurate Colt's SAA currently in the herd. The Lee "Factory Crimp Die" places the best crimp, my dies are Buffalo Arms Co., and they work great as does the Starline brass. 9.0 gr. of Unique clocks 1,000 fps. Boolits sized as .401".

Yes you have to lube to size in a steel sizer die but this is a minor task to construct ammo for a great cartridge. I've shot an 8" group at 100 yards two hand hold off hand with my 3rd gen 7 1/2" nickel Colt's with a black powder frame. Haven't compared this .38-40 to my most accurate.44 Special at 100 yards from a rest yet.

Mr. Eddie Janis, proprietor of Peacemaker Specialist said he's seen those .38-40 Colt's 3rd gens deliver unbelievable accuracy.

The .38-40 shouldn't work, but it does. The base of the boolit seats below the neck, and when fired the shoulder is fire formed well ahead of where the sizer dies forms the shoulder. Nonetheless the .38-40 is extremely accurate. It's the frontier .40 S&W but has a lot more class and delivers equal ballistics at almost half the pressure.

[oldhenry]

I always thought that the 1st. number indicated the caliber & the number after the dash indicated the BP charge (as in 44-40 & 32-20). I thought the .38-40 was a misnomer and there is some evidence to that theory: on the bottom of the brass carrier of my '73 Winchester is engraved "38WCF". It is @ the very back of my gun safe & would take some effort to retrieve: but if anyone is interested, I'd dig it out & send a photo (it'd be my 1st photo posting on this forum).
Henry

[Outpost75]

FWIW, the modern .40 S&W duplicates the same bullet diameter, payload and velocity of the .38-40 blackpowder load. We have come full circle.

[ANick57]

I always thought that the 1st. number indicated the caliber & the number after the dash indicated the BP charge (as in 44-40 & 32-20). I thought the .38-40 was a misnomer and there is some evidence to that theory: on the bottom of the brass carrier of my '73 Winchester is engraved "38WCF". It is @ the very back of my gun safe & would take some effort to retrieve: but if anyone is interested, I'd dig it out & send a photo (it'd be my 1st photo posting on this forum).
Henry

Henry, if you'd care to pull it out into the light of day and grace us with an image, I'd be honored to gaze upon it. I'll even try not to drool.. more than usual.

.. also Jack, Bouncer, Outpost, yup. There is enough of a, "Hmm. What's this?", about the danged thing to drag one in. I'd read somewhere, some tie into the .38-40 and heeled bullets, which only sounds good for a short moment. #1, it's based off the .44-40 (.428 bullet dia); #2, heeled bullets were served notice with the .44 Russian cartridge; so.. it's being added to existing product. You'd think it would follow along neatly in the pre-existing format. Wouldn't you? Makes you wonder if they had intended to roll it up as a .38 initially. The greater separation between the .44 and the .32 would make sense. Or maybe it was that marketing looked at the progression of .32, .38 and .44 as a beauty of organization so Grail-like as to defy anything to do with reality?

Come to think of it though, a heeled bullet could do wonders for solving push issues on the crimp in a tube magazine. Not too sure what that would do for accuracy.

Matching up case profiles among wheel gun, rifle and dies would be a good thing, eh?

[bouncer50]

The only heel bullet still around is the 22 s,l,and long rifle. Funny part the 22 is very accurate. Other heel-bullets designs so-so accurate. The reason the 38-40 44-40 45 Colt are still around they were never a heel bullet. Heel bullets when of with the horse and buggy era.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

ANick57, I sent you a PM

[9.3X62AL]

Bullet designs like the Lyman #311008, #401043, and #427098--for the 32/20, 38/40, and 44/40 WCF calibers respectively--were designed without a crimp groove because the bullet base was meant to sit on a column of compressed black powder, and in that manner be proof against bullets telescoping. The package was crimped--around the bullet ogive, to keep the package wrapped and to resist bullet creep-out when fired in revolvers.

Someone on this site--"W30WCF" if I recall correctly--has substituted Alliant's Reloder-7 in these calibers for the black powder very safely, having bullets sit on a 100%-density powder column and crimped in the old-school fashion.

In my 32/20 and 44/40 revolvers and rifles, these load regimens have yielded blackpowder era velocities and long brass life. While on the subject of brass cases......go Starline and save yourself a BUNCH of hassle. W-W and R-P brass in these calibers is almost useless, and will tweak and bend if stared at intently.

[HATCH]

38-40 and 44-40 were blackpowder at one time in the past over a 100 years ago. The 44-40 was 44 caliber and 40 grains of BP. The 38-40 is just a neck down 44-40 and the 38-40 is 38 grains of BP and a 40 caliber bullet. I have pistol in 38-40 and 44.40 but no rifles.

Your close.

Both the 44/40 and the 38/40 use the same amount of black powder. 40 grains.

I loaded 44/40 and 38/40 using new starline brass, cast boolits, and unique powder.
I worked up the loads using factory ammo and a chronograph.

Believe it or not, both rounds use the exact same amount of unique

[9.3X62AL]

There is not a whole lot of difference between the 38/40 and 44/40 calibers as far as performance downrange goes. I am a frequent user of these hyphenated short Winchester rifle/revolver rounds, and tooling up for the 38/40 didn't seem like it offered much that the 44/40 didn't already accomplish.

[oldhenry]

First of all I need to make a correction. The "38 W.C.F." stamp is on the top of the bbl. next to the receiver. The inscription on the bottom of the brass follower is ".38 Cal" which thickens the plot. Did Winchester intentionally deceive the public, or was there that much confusion between the people building the rifle & those selling the rifle?

Anyway, I hope the photos follow.

The last photo is of the bottom tang of the receiver under the lever...........some original blueing remains. The remainder of the finish is mainly patina.

Henry


__________________________________________________ ___________
A real sports involves either gasoline or gun powder.............anything else is
just a game.

[ANick57]

There is not a whole lot of difference between the 38/40 and 44/40 calibers as far as performance downrange goes. I am a frequent user of these hyphenated short Winchester rifle/revolver rounds, and tooling up for the 38/40 didn't seem like it offered much that the 44/40 didn't already accomplish.

I don't have either of those, so tool up is near same. Except the .38-40 specific fiddly bits can be a little bit of a challenge. I have heard in a multiple of places that the .38-40 can be very accurate. I don't know how is stacks up against the big brother or the .45 LC regarding accuraccy :

[9.3X62AL]

The '73 Winchester I use in 44/40 WCF is a 19" carbine, and with its favored bullet (SAECO #446) it will stay at or just outside 3" at 100 yards with OEM open irons. Not bad for a 120 year old carbine that saw A LOT of service as a ranch & farm gun. It has undoubtedly taken more deer than all the rifles I've ever owned in total, and has at least 2 black bears to its credit as well. A bear gets no quarter after stealing a fresh-baked pie from a window sill at my family's old mountain ranch. Grandma saw to that right promptly.

The 44/40 revolver is a late 2012 Uberti Cattleman x 4-3/4", and with that same SAECO #446 loading (25.0 grains of RL-7) it stays inside 2" at 25 yards and the bullets hit where the sights look. Velocity in the Pasta Colta is about 850-875 FPS; in the carbine 1200-1225 FPS is the rate.

[tinstarfirearms]

ANick57,
I am very new to the .38-40 game and only when I won an auction for a Colt SAA Bisley from 1912. I have been strictly a straight walled, carbide sizer die sort of reloader for 25 years but this one is fun. I have only loaded and fired roughly 60 rounds in the past month I have owned it. I am loading a 180g bullet over 5.4g of Trail Boss for just under 700fps. I am using the same ten Starline cases in sort of an endurance test but with this mild of a load, they may last forever. I am focusing more on learning the point of impact for this gun more than anything else as it hits roughly 3-5" low with my normal "bullseye" hold.

Andrew

[oldhenry]

ANick57,
This last photo was made today with the aid of my wife operating the LED light @ different angles to get the best effect. Believe it or not, the problem was the bore was too bright (a good problem to have).

Either the original owner cleaned it meticulously after shooting, or it is a late manufacture & smokeless powder only loads were used.

BTW, I paid $50.00 for the gun in '60..........@ the time I was making $45.00/wk.

Henry

[Silver Jack Hammer]

[Speedo66]

Neither cartridge makes sense as to proper caliber. The .44-40 is actually .42, and the .38-40 is actually .40. Only some long gone Winchester employee might have the reason why. Along with why they produced rifles with such close calibers and performance.

I don't know whether Colt or Winchester produced their products first in 1873, the SAA or the Winchester Model 1873, but no doubt Winchester wanted their name on their cartridge, thus the WCF (Winchester Central Fire, referring to the primer), after the caliber.

I use a mild load of 5.5g of TrailBoss over a 180 flat nosed lead bollit by Missouri Bullets in my original .38-40 '73, so mild I think it just makes it out of the barrel. With the heavy 24" octagonal barrel, recoil is barely felt. But it does keep the old girl working, and puts holes in paper. I'm OK with that.

[prsman23]

Do it. I double dog dare you!


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