Good Load for Shaved Cylinder .455/.45AR/ACP Webleys

[Throwback]

The “least powerful” .45 in my acquaintance is the .455 Webley, also known by a host of other names I won’t bother to get into. The British service cartridge is rare over here and so I have only fired a small few as originally chambered. I do have a shaved-cylinder MarkVI built at Enfield. It is dimensionally the same as every other I have run into, in that it has undersized cylinder throats. It now chambers .45 Auto-Rim and .45ACP in “moon clips”. However, loads at .45 ACP pressure levels are not safe in the old Webleys. To be sure, these are robust guns, but they were only built up to the level of the comparatively low velocity/low pressure .455.

So there are two challenges, safety and accuracy. Choices include reaming chambers so that the throats match the bores and sizing bullets accordingly, shooting soft lead so that bullets “bump-up”, or not worrying about it and accepting mediocre accuracy.

As this is not a serious defense gun in my arsenal and only something fun and historical to shoot, I have no interest in the expense of reaming the throats of this revolver. I do not use very much really soft alloy in my pots so I also didn’t want to make up a new batch just for low volume shooting in the old beast. I chose the next best option, which is Hornaday’s 255 grain swaged round nose bullet for the .45 Colt.

There is surprisingly little load data for .45AR/ACP Webley loads to be found so I chose Titegroup to experiment with as it works well with light charges. I worked my way up and found two loads that worked well enough for my purposes. I found there was plenty of room in the chambers to seat bullets way out (COAL 1.293). This, I assumed would allow for best accuracy and somewhat lower pressures. Accuracy was initially underwhelming, especially at longer ranges. As powder charges increased, accuracy from 25 yards-in was acceptable. 4.5 grains of Titegroup delivers the same velocity as the original military loads (265 grain LRN/650 fps). It shot reasonably close to the sights and was relatively accurate. 4.8 grains, while it slightly exceeds military specs, showed improvement in accuracy. When I managed sight picture, trigger press, and follow-through successfully (not the world’s best trigger) accuracy was actually quite good.

[Outpost75]

I had DougGuy uniform and hone the chamber throats of my MkVI to .4555."
Attachment 199120
I use Accurate 45-262H cast of 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals. I load 3.5 grains of Alliant Bullseye which gives not quite 600 fps and has been pressure tested and confirmed not to exceed 13,000 psi. My gut feeling is that your TiteGroup load very likely exceeds 14,000 psi.

Attachment 199117Attachment 199118Attachment 199119Attachment 199121

Loads with bullets sized .452 shot round groups despite being undersized after cylinder was honed. 45-259H was my preliminary bullet design, 45-262H is the final.
Orange full-sized IPSC silhouette was shot at 100 yards.

[Drm50]

I do 4.2 gr Unique, 230cast RN. They are cast soft, just lead & Tin. fps 500 to 600? Only shoot
it for grins anyway. I have 455 Colt NS that I don't hotrod either, approx. 600fps, 272gr soft cast.
I have never had leading in these LV pistols with soft cast, but bores are very good to begin with.
If bore is rough you may have to use WWs for cast bullets.

[35remington]

I would counsel caution with what you are doing as well. 4.8 Titegroup in the larger capacity 45 ACP case with a lighter 230 LRN is a full standard pressure load approximating 16-18,000 psi and 825-850 fps. An equivalent charge in your Webley with a heavier bullet does not translate well.

I would back your load down substantially if staying within your firearm's intended pressure range matters to you.

[Throwback]

I appreciate your cautions and you may be right. These loads do not perfectly correlate to .45 acp though, as I am using a longer OAL. Any other input is appreciated especially if anyone has better empirical tools than I do.

[Groo]

Groo here
Trailboss...

[35remington]

I have my doubts that powder space is any greater with your loading versus my comparison of a larger cartridge and shorter lighter bullet. You are using a heavier bullet to boot. Something to think about.

Please see the sticky on top of this forum about shaved Webleys. Some good and relevant comments worth reading from guys who have considerable bona fides in knowing what is acceptable.

[Larry Gibson]

Might find the test information here applicable;

https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/th...bullets-tests/

https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/th...ts-455-webley/

https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/th...-45-schofield/

https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/th...llets-45-colt/


Larry Gibson

[Throwback]

Thank you all for your inputs. I shall stick with 4.5 grains and accept the (slightly) inferior accuracy. I have stronger guns and loads for when I need them.

[jrayborn]

Howdy Throwback, nothing much to add in terms of your loading as I have wanted a .455 Webley since I was in my teens. Managed to get a couple of the .38's so far. Just wanted to say hi to a fellow Mainer.

[mnewcomb59]

Why not try a slower powder like Power Pistol? You would reach your accurate velocity at much lower pressure.

[Outpost75]

Why not try a slower powder like Power Pistol? You would reach your accurate velocity at much lower pressure.

Power Pistol, Herco and even Unique DO NOT ignite uniformly below 13,000 psi and velocities are VERY erratic!!

That's why I went to Bullseye, which works just fine in this application.

[rintinglen]

Power Pistol, Herco and even Unique DO NOT ignite uniformly below 13,000 psi and velocities are VERY erratic!!

That's why I went to Bullseye, which works just fine in this application.

My experience thus far is exactly what Outpost describes. HS-6 has proven to be a bust, with unburned powder and visible vertical stringing. 3.5 grains of red dot has worked better. I would recommend Powders such as WW-231/Hp-38 or faster for these guns.

[mnewcomb59]

Power Pistol, Herco and even Unique DO NOT ignite uniformly below 13,000 psi and velocities are VERY erratic!!

That's why I went to Bullseye, which works just fine in this application.

Did you try other powders? Sure Unique might be erratic at 13k PSI in a 357 mag case, but in your little Webley case it would have decent case fill. Power Pistol works excellently for light ACP loads around 14k PSI, where it reaches the same velocity as Bullseye at 20k PSI. Power Pistol works excellently in the larger 45 colt case (also 14k PSI) with 250 grainers, so why wouldn't it work with a heavier bullet in a smaller case at the same pressure? The logic makes no sense

Did you already try Power Pistol or are you assuming it won't be good? I believe OP would be much better served by maybe 50 fps ES from Power Pistol than by running 22k PSI in that old gun with Titegroup. His Titegroup load is probably a proof load pressure-wise. Anyone who would rather be overpressure than have minor velocity variations is someone who I would want to stay far away from when they are shooting.

[Outpost75]

The P/T trace doesn't lie.

Bullseye is VERY uniform, ignites easily and has a smooth pressure rise below 13kpsi and produces uniform velocities in the desired 600 fps range with safe pressures and good accuracy. It was originally designed for these conditions of loading in large caliber black powder cartridges and has been doing so successfully for 120 years. I see no reason to reinvent the wheel when there is a well established, long proven, simple answer that works. Especially when I have 16 pounds of Bullseye in the bunker!

[mnewcomb59]

Did you already try Power Pistol or are you assuming it won't be good?

The P/T trace doesn't lie.

Bullseye is VERY uniform, ignites easily and has a smooth pressure rise below 13kpsi and produces uniform velocities in the desired 600 fps range with safe pressures and good accuracy. It was originally designed for these conditions of loading in large caliber black powder cartridges and has been doing so successfully for 120 years. I see no reason to reinvent the wheel when there is a well established, long proven, simple answer that works. Especially when I have 16 pounds of Bullseye in the bunker!

So you ran a pressure barrel with Power Pistol at 14k psi in the small case with the big bullet? Or no?