Considering Repentance

[claude]

There is huge Biblical evidence of the need for repentance, which means basically to have a change of heart, or to turn around and go a different way.

Do you believe there is forgiveness without repentance? I'm aware of the 7X70 teaching, yet believe that repentance is required for forgiveness, even to 490 times a day, and that simple confession is left wanting.

[Thundarstick]

One of the things I believe Christians fail to name is works. There are so many things we take for granted yet fail to realize they are works. The scriptures plainly teach we are saved by grace through faith, yet faith without works is a dead faith. Anything that requires my action is a work and this includes repentance. You can believe, yet take no action, and that is exactly what James means when he says the devils believe and trimble, yet don't obey! Faith with out works is dead. A living faith requires action on my part!

[Wayne Smith]

Part of the problem is understanding the difference in how the Greek and the Hebrew assumed the language worked. For the Greek I am what I think. For the Hebrew I am what I do. The early Hebrew had a very literal approach to language. If you swore to an early Hebrew he would duck - so that the words would miss him. It was as if they had a physical presence.

So for a Hebrew the assumption is that repentance is action - there is no other way to do it. We tend to be very Greek in our assumptions!

[claude]

We tend to be very Greek in our assumptions!

Translates to? Were you Hebrew, your answer is clear, but saying you think much like the Greek, your answer is lacking.

I'm just an old redneck, when I think, it is action, ponderous at times, but action none the less. Therefore, changing the way I think is a work, turning my mind to think a different way is work, regretting is an act of will, it too is work. I speak only for myself, YMMV.

[GhostHawk]

It is my belief that to be forgiven of all your sins, you must repent.

You must be heartsick over each. And you must make a real effort to not repeat any of those sin's again. Jesus was quick to heal and to forgive, and quick to say "go forth and sin no more".

Repent yes, and stand on that. Hold fast to it. Keep yourself on the path, stay in God's will. Sin no more, and then start seeing where you can lend a hand.

Simplistic perhaps, I am no scholar or theologian.
But when my Lord called me, on the third day I threw myself on the floor and begged for forgiveness. Tears streaming down my face. I believe I repented of every evil thing I ever did. Many of them went flashing through my mind. I continue to repent for the small thoughtless ways I have inflicted pain.

But how do we know? We are men, imperfect beings that fail and fall and stumble every single day. Until we stand before our maker how can we know what it is we will hear?

In my opinion, we can not "Know" we can only keep "trying" to be better. To be more like our Lord. More loving, less judging. More forgiving, more tolerant.

[claude]

I don't feel you're simplistic at all.

But how do we know?

Faith

[Parson]

Luke 13:3&5

[Thundarstick]

But how do we know? We are men, imperfect beings that fail and fall and stumble every single day. Until we stand before our maker how can we know what it is we will hear?



1Jo 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

[Ickisrulz]

It is my belief that to be forgiven of all your sins, you must repent.

You must be heartsick over each. And you must make a real effort to not repeat any of those sin's again. Jesus was quick to heal and to forgive, and quick to say "go forth and sin no more".

Repent yes, and stand on that. Hold fast to it. Keep yourself on the path, stay in God's will. Sin no more, and then start seeing where you can lend a hand.

Simplistic perhaps, I am no scholar or theologian.
But when my Lord called me, on the third day I threw myself on the floor and begged for forgiveness. Tears streaming down my face. I believe I repented of every evil thing I ever did. Many of them went flashing through my mind. I continue to repent for the small thoughtless ways I have inflicted pain.

But how do we know? We are men, imperfect beings that fail and fall and stumble every single day. Until we stand before our maker how can we know what it is we will hear?

In my opinion, we can not "Know" we can only keep "trying" to be better. To be more like our Lord. More loving, less judging. More forgiving, more tolerant.

Not everyone is the same emotionally. If "heartsick" over sin is required to be forgiven...I guess I am lost. There are plenty of things I have done that are sinful that I am not particularly all that broken up about. In fact, some have given me pretty good memories. I wouldn't repeat them if given the chance, but this is based on intellect rather than emotion. I try not to live a life characterized by sin.

[wv109323]

I really don't understand the definition of the word repentance We use it today as a change of heart,turn in a different direction or confession of sin (most think repentance equals obtaining salvation).
But my study reveals that the word repent was not in the English language until Tyndale translated the Bible into English. The root word was pentence which means penalty or fine or punishment. The "re" was the prefix added which made repentance the opposite meaning of pentence.
I think repent is the recognition of a sin against God but confession is the act of asking God to forgive us.
The Bible says Judas repented but I do not think he obtained salvation.

[Ickisrulz]

I really don't understand the definition of the word repentance We use it today as a change of heart,turn in a different direction or confession of sin (most think repentance equals obtaining salvation).
But my study reveals that the word repent was not in the English language until Tyndale translated the Bible into English. The root word was pentence which means penalty or fine or punishment. The "re" was the prefix added which made repentance the opposite meaning of pentence.
I think repent is the recognition of a sin against God but confession is the act of asking God to forgive us.
The Bible says Judas repented but I do not think he obtained salvation.

In the Bible "repent" means most simply "to change one's mind" ideally followed by a change in behavior.

In Judas' case he changed his mind on what he should have done, but killed himself rather than changing his behavior or seeking forgiveness

[claude]

but killed himself rather than changing his behavior or seeking forgiveness

I seriously question that, acts 1:18 indicates his bowels gushed out, it takes a large wound to let ones bowels gush out.

(Acts 1:18) "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

I Matt 27:5 The word hanged can be to choke oneself with grief,

(Matthew 27:5) "And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."

If we are going to speculate, it is more likely that the same people who paid him off for the tip about Jesus, likely killed him when they saw his repentance and could no longer count on his secrecy.

The Bible says Judas repented but I do not think he obtained salvation.

Isn't this is the very sort of judgement we are warned against, who are we, worms that we are, to decide who is or isn't saved? Just a thought.

[Ickisrulz]

I don't think there is much room in scripture to arrive at the conclusion that everything worked out OK in the end for Judas.

"The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” Matt 26:24

Judas hanged himself. After the dead body had hung in the hot sun for a while, the rope broke and the bloated body came apart when it hit the ground spilling his guts.

[claude]

Judas hanged himself. After the dead body had hung in the hot sun for a while, the rope broke and the bloated body came apart when it hit the ground spilling his guts.

I see we are at an impasse, interesting statement though.

[Ickisrulz]

I see we are at an impasse, interesting statement though.

Do you really think every English translation committee mistranslated this verse? Do you really think Matthew would not have recorded Judas' murder if that had been the case?

The explanation I gave is one of a couple possible scenarios that reconcile Matthew and Luke's account of Judas' death. The other is that the rope broke in the process of the act and he hit some rocks causing severe injuries.

Most times the simplest way of reading something is the most correct. Lots of errors occur when people start fixating on Greek words without a comprehensive understanding of the entire language.

[wv109323]

I don't think I am judging Judas's soul. If Judas was repentant and forgiven by God, why would he hang himself. Does God forgive and we still have guilt to the point of suicide? Jesus himself called Judas a devil. Also Mat. 24:26

[claude]

wv109323, I don't believe you are either, however Judas gave back the money, a sure sign of repentance, as I said, just a thought.

[claude]

The explanation I gave is one of a couple possible scenarios that reconcile Matthew and Luke's account of Judas' death. The other is that the rope broke in the process of the act and he hit some rocks causing severe injuries.

As I said, we are at an impasse. However, how long do you believe a body has to hang before it becomes deteriorated enough to burst asunder upon hitting the floor, or rot the rope holding it up?? Additionally, the law required a body to be taken down before sundown and not hang overnight, Deut. 21:23-23

So if we are offering scenarios, mine works for me, yours works for you.

Do you really think every English translation committee mistranslated this verse? Do you really think Matthew would not have recorded Judas' murder if that had been the case?

I think that you discount the efforts of the scribes, and are possibly ignorant of who they are 1 Chron. 2:55, I also really think that every English translation that I know of to date has mistranslated the word pascha, passover, to easter, simply because they do not do their own translating but rely for the most part on prior translators efforts. So yes, I do believe there are mistakes made. I also really think that every "new improved" translation loses information critical to proper understanding.

Have you read the preface to the King James bible where in the translators warn us to be aware that there are possibly mistakes made?

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20000817.htm

If that is not enough information for you to confirm in your mind that we are probably never going to reach a same page status in this discussion, I'm at a loss to add anything further. I rest my case.

[Char-Gar]

Judas was a very interesting person. He was the only Judean in the Apostolic band, the rest being from Galilee. Galilee which translates "The District" was an area where Jews and Gentiles lived side by side and hence were considered to be an inferior type of Jew. Judas kept the common purse and paid the bills and there were rumors he was light fingered.

What motivated Judas is a matter of speculation and not fact. We do know he accepted 30 pieces of silver which was about a working man's yearly earnings. At some point in time, he regretted his part in the capture of Jesus and threw the money back at those who had given it to him.

There are two versions of the demise of Judas as mentioned above. One version has him falling down and bursting open and the other version has him hanging himself. The rotting corpse and breaking rope is an attempt to harmonize the two accounts. This montage was incorporated into movie "The Passion of Christ".

There are some things we know about Judas and many things we do not know. Speculation is fun, but never give it the weight of fact.

[claude]

There are some things we know about Judas and many things we do not know. Speculation is fun, but never give it the weight of fact.

Thank you Char-Gar, your entire comment is timely indeed.