Considering Repentance

[sniper]

I think this discussion has departed from the original question.
I am no scriptorian or Bible expert, but I believe the Bible is the word of God, insofar as it has been correctly translated. Therein lies the question...shall we believe...word for word..."Kiver to Kiver"...that whichever version of the Bible we love is the final, exact word as it was handed down? Of COURSE the KJV is not "the" Bible "used by Peter, Paul and John"! There wasn't a KJV Bible until some 1,000+ years after the fact. The scholars of those days gave the best translations their sources and education allowed.

Now: The fact is that the Old and New Testaments contain principles of righteousness...the Old Testament pointing to and prophesying of the Savior, Jesus Christ, and the New Testament documenting his birth as the LITERAL Son of God, and ministry. Through several millennia, have errors crept in? Certainly! But...the principles are still there, and living by them will lead to better lives.

Repentance? Absolutely, but it is a PROCESS, not something that happens only once, and then Done! After the first recognition we have done something against God's will, or Commandments, then comes the change...in life, in thinking and acting...the life-long task or conforming our little lives to God's wishes. We go from one principle to another, improving one, while keeping the others in check as well as we can. We will all sin, and sin again, but, if we truly repent, then God's Mercy and Grace take over, providing what we, as human, earthly beings cannot. That is why Christ came..."To pay a debt HE did not owe, because we owed a debt we could not pay." as a human, through his Mother, he could be tempted like all of us, but also being divine, his statement that No man takes my life...I give it freely, to fulfill HIS Father's will, and made it possible for all mankind to enjoy the presence of both the Father and the Son forever. It has been truly said that repentance and a good life are WORKS, (HARD work, sometimes) but we know that despite all we can do, it will be by HIS Grace that we will ultimately be saved. And that is the message of the Old and New Testaments. I know God loves his children today even as much as he did in the "olden days", and he gives knowledge and direction to us here on Earth.

[Dieselhorses]

As I said, we are at an impasse. However, how long do you believe a body has to hang before it becomes deteriorated enough to burst asunder upon hitting the floor, or rot the rope holding it up?? Additionally, the law required a body to be taken down before sundown and not hang overnight, Deut. 21:23-23

So if we are offering scenarios, mine works for me, yours works for you.



I think that you discount the efforts of the scribes, and are possibly ignorant of who they are 1 Chron. 2:55, I also really think that every English translation that I know of to date has mistranslated the word pascha, passover, to easter, simply because they do not do their own translating but rely for the most part on prior translators efforts. So yes, I do believe there are mistakes made. I also really think that every "new improved" translation loses information critical to proper understanding.

Have you read the preface to the King James bible where in the translators warn us to be aware that there are possibly mistakes made?

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20000817.htm

If that is not enough information for you to confirm in your mind that we are probably never going to reach a same page status in this discussion, I'm at a loss to add anything further. I rest my case.

There are no mistakes in the word of God. Whoever came up with that idea is misguided.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1hole]

There are no mistakes in the word of God. Whoever came up with that idea is misguided.

You're absolutely correct in that the original authors were inspired by God to perfectly write as they did, covering human time from about 2,500 BC to about 100 AD.

Sadly, we don't have any originals of those writings, all we have are handwritten copies and translations that do vary a bit. We KNOW there are some word and grammar variations in those works, at least in the translations.

For instance, we know the 1611 KJV has the most specific word errors but it's meaningless, none of those errors have any effect on any Christian doctrine so they don't matter. There are some current English Bible versions I personally like better than others but that doesn't mean my favorites are somehow better or more accurate than the others.

Some folk ask, "Why so many versions of the Bible?" Answer is, any translation of anything is a version of the original; it has to be, if the original remained exactly the same it would not be a translation at all! Since we don't have and can't read the original texts, our concern has to be, "How accurately does the translated version present the original message?" Bottom line, I believe all of the dozen or more versions I have read are all good but probably not perfect.

I mean it seems that all major (orthodox) Bible versions get the spiritual message correct so we accomplish nothing useful by arguing amongst ourselves over which English version is "right" or "wrong"; THAT'S JUST OUR OPINION! I believe we actually damage the cause of Jesus when we publically argue about it in anger and the Bible says that's a sin (2 Tim 2:14).

IMHO.

[1hole]

I am no scriptorian or Bible expert, but I believe the Bible is the word of God, insofar as it has been correctly translated.

What makes me nervous about saying inerrant EXCEPT as it's "correctly translated" without clarification is because it opens the door to blasphemy by religious groups such as Mormon and Jehovah Witness who claim their transparent fabrications are "correct translations"; they are not.

I believe all orthodox translations are as accurate as we can expect because their trivial differences don't challenge any Christian doctrines and they teach the gospel of salvation by grace, through being born again believers trusting in the blood bought and totally finished work of Lord Jesus. The false bible versions are deliberate corruptions designed to support false doctrines of salvation by works and total faith in their Satanic leaders, not Jesus; that's some bad juju.

Of COURSE the KJV is not "the" Bible "used by Peter, Paul and John"! There wasn't a KJV Bible until some 1,000+ years after the fact.

Well, there was no KJV until 1611 but that comment was just a gentle jibe at my beloved "KJV Only" (and it with a black cover?) brothers who seem to think the KJV was indeed the Bible used by the disciples; after all, only the KJV has the THEEs and THOUs and only it is the "Authorised" version!

Through several millennia, have errors crept in? Certainly! But...the principles are still there, and living by them will lead to better lives.

Exactly so. And that was my point.

[Dieselhorses]

You're absolutely correct in that the original authors were inspired by God to perfectly write as they did, covering human time from about 2,500 BC to about 100 AD.

Sadly, we don't have any originals of those writings, all we have are handwritten copies and translations that do vary a bit. We KNOW there are some word and grammar variations in those works, at least in the translations.

For instance, we know the 1611 KJV has the most specific word errors but it's meaningless, none of those errors have any effect on any Christian doctrine so they don't matter. There are some current English Bible versions I personally like better than others but that doesn't mean my favorites are somehow better or more accurate than the others.

Some folk ask, "Why so many versions of the Bible?" Answer is, any translation of anything is a version of the original; it has to be, if the original remained exactly the same it would not be a translation at all! Since we don't have and can't read the original texts, our concern has to be, "How accurately does the translated version present the original message?" Bottom line, I believe all of the dozen or more versions I have read are all good but probably not perfect.

I mean it seems that all major (orthodox) Bible versions get the spiritual message correct so we accomplish nothing useful by arguing amongst ourselves over which English version is "right" or "wrong"; THAT'S JUST OUR OPINION! I believe we actually damage the cause of Jesus when we publically argue about it in anger and the Bible says that's a sin (2 Tim 2:14).

IMHO.

I agree. I just have to trust the Holy Spirit to speak to me through the scriptures. If I read the Bible as though it were a magazine or a newspaper it won't make any sense to me unless I say a small prayer ask God to put my heart and mind into a receptive state. But no, we shouldn't argue the word of God, but we should work on having the ability to discern the spirits. It's one thing to stand up for Him but yet another to point fingers.

[1hole]

But no, we shouldn't argue the word of God, but we should work on having the ability to discern the spirits. It's one thing to stand up for Him but yet another to point fingers.

Well said.

I am old. But, I was young once and made all the assured assertions young people make, perhaps especially so about theology. Maybe I should have written a book on theology back when I still "knew it all." Now it's too late for that because I've learned enough more to KNOW I still don't know a lot. And a good part of what I have learned drives me to recognise that a lot of what I do know may be wrong - again; that makes me far more humble and more forgiving of other people's "errors."

There are core points of Christianity that are critical and I hope I would die before renouncing those points. BUT, I won't kill anyone, even the cults, because they miss the boat even on core doctrines, nor would I die to defend religious trivia such as how deep baptism water must be nor how wrong Catholics, etc, are. Jesus said, "by your love for each other people will know you are my followers" (slight paraphrase of John 13:35).

Average fourth grade children can read the Bible and know the words. No child and too few adults actually grasp much of what is written actually means but there's where and angry attacks over differences in religious trivia begins. Thoughtful discussions on different denominational understandings are certainly good and interesting but immature anger and vindictive attacks are neither good for Christ nor interesting to adults. I wish we who claim the name of Jesus would never drop into that level of non-love.

We can, we may strongly disagree about what some scripture passages mean but we don't have to be discourteous when doing it; we are told we can (rightly) judge a tree by the fruit it bears and good trees just don't bear bad fruit!

Bottom line: If any individual Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Charismatic, etc, gets to heaven it will only be by faith in Jesus as Lord. Their saving faith will be in spite of, not because of any denominational affiliation or works so we shouldn't fight amongst ourselves over non-essentials.

[sniper]

there are core points of christianity that are critical and i hope i would die before renouncing those points. But, i won't kill anyone, even the cults, because they miss the boat even on core doctrines,... Jesus said, "by your love for each other people will know you are my followers" (slight paraphrase of john 13:35).

Average fourth grade children can read the bible and know the words. Thoughtful discussions on different denominational understandings are certainly good and interesting but immature anger and vindictive attacks are neither good for christ nor interesting to adults. I wish we who claim the name of jesus would never drop into that level of non-love.

We can, we may strongly disagree about what some scripture passages mean but we don't have to be discourteous when doing it; we are told we can (rightly) judge a tree by the fruit it bears and good trees just don't bear bad fruit!

Bottom line: If any individual baptist, methodist, presbyterian, roman catholic, charismatic, etc, gets to heaven it will only be by faith in jesus as lord. Their saving faith will be in spite of, not because of any denominational affiliation or works so we shouldn't fight amongst ourselves over non-essentials.

exactly!

[dtknowles]

To achieve salvation you must keep faith with Jesus and his teachings. If you know you have sinned then you must confess and repent. If you are truly repentant then you will do your best to make amends. If you don't do those things then you have broken faith with Jesus and will not be saved. If you believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior then you will do these things even if it will cause you suffering. Repent and you will be saved. Confession is not enough because all you achieve with a confession is acknowledged that you have sinned not that you have reformed. If you stole $10 from a coworker and you confess just to Jesus but not to the coworker do you think you will be forgiven? Wouldn't you have to give them their money back and admit you took it?

Consider how hard it would be to be forgiven for rape or murder. Wouldn't you have to turn yourself in to the authorities and confess? Getting away with a sin means no forgiveness. Confessing to Jesus but continuing to live the lie that you are innocent cannot be forgiven because you would be an unrepentant liar.


Doesn't keeping faith with Jesus require that you accept the consequences of your actions and you make amends to the limits of your ability even if it costs you your life?

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

To achieve salvation you must keep faith with Jesus and his teachings. If you know you have sinned then you must confess and repent. If you are truly repentant then you will do your best to make amends. If you don't do those things then you have broken faith with Jesus and will not be saved. If you believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior then you will do these things even if it will cause you suffering. Repent and you will be saved. Confession is not enough because all you achieve with a confession is acknowledged that you have sinned not that you have reformed. If you stole $10 from a coworker and you confess just to Jesus but not to the coworker do you think you will be forgiven? Wouldn't you have to give them their money back and admit you took it?

Consider how hard it would be to be forgiven for rape or murder. Wouldn't you have to turn yourself in to the authorities and confess? Getting away with a sin means no forgiveness. Confessing to Jesus but continuing to live the lie that you are innocent cannot be forgiven because you would be an unrepentant liar.


Doesn't keeping faith with Jesus require that you accept the consequences of your actions and you make amends to the limits of your ability even if it costs you your life?

Tim

Salvation is a free gift of God that leads to a changed life no longer characterized by sin. James talked about the fact that a person's faith will result in actions that reflect the character of God.

Jesus talked about making restitution in order worship God properly. Paul discusses "confessing your sins one to another" with the idea being making apologies or restitution.

Does a Christian need to make restitution in every instance of sin in order to be forgiven by God? I don't think so.

First, this would be impossible. We are not aware of everything we do wrong in life. Other times our transgressions are so enormous that we cannot possibly repay our debt to our neighbors other than an admittance of wrongdoing and an apology.

Second, not every Christian is in the same place in his walk with God. Some are more sanctified than others. While restitution (if possible) following repentance is the ultimate goal for the earthbound Christian, many will just not do this due to ignorance, embarrassment, pride or a situation's complexity. Are we to assume God withholds his forgiveness from these people?

Consider this, the only troubled church that Paul warned about "falling from grace" was the Galatians. The Galatians were being influenced by teachers that would have them leave their faith in Jesus' atonement. Such a warning was not given to the Corinthians who had some very carnal activity going on. Ultimately faith is the vital component. Without faith a changed life is impossible.

[Traffer]

There is huge Biblical evidence of the need for repentance, which means basically to have a change of heart, or to turn around and go a different way.

Do you believe there is forgiveness without repentance? I'm aware of the 7X70 teaching, yet believe that repentance is required for forgiveness, even to 490 times a day, and that simple confession is left wanting.

Without a repentant heart, why would a person even seek forgiveness? Repentance is a turning of the heart FIRST. Then the change of heart hopefully inspires a commitment to a change of one's ways. It is very VERY simple. Not easy, but simple.

[1hole]

There are two versions of the demise of Judas as mentioned above. One version has him falling down and bursting open and the other version has him hanging himself. The rotting corpse and breaking rope is an attempt to harmonize the two accounts.

In that climate, if it was summer, enough body rot to bloat/rupture so that after a stretched neck pulled apart and fell would take no more than three days. So, I believe what we have is more likely two parts of the same story instead of two stories.

We shouldn't equate Judas' (nor anyone else's) fit of emotional remorse with spiritual repentance, i.e., a true turning away from past performance. True repentance is distinctly different from a moment of remorse.

None of us are or can be perfect in this life but if there is no change in personal performance there has been no personal repentance.

[dtknowles]

………….Does a Christian need to make restitution in every instance of sin in order to be forgiven by God? I don't think so.

First, this would be impossible. We are not aware of everything we do wrong in life. Other times our transgressions are so enormous that we cannot possibly repay our debt to our neighbors other than an admittance of wrongdoing and an apology.

Second, not every Christian is in the same place in his walk with God. Some are more sanctified than others. While restitution (if possible) following repentance is the ultimate goal for the earthbound Christian, many will just not do this due to ignorance, embarrassment, pride or a situation's complexity. Are we to assume God withholds his forgiveness from these people?……...

I think restitution must be made to the best of our ability even if it is a great hardship.

No you don't have to repent and make restitution for sins you can't be expected to know you committed, it is obvious you can't. Faith is not broken in this case as you are willfully disregarding you obligation.

I believe that God will withhold his forgiveness in cases of ignorance, embarrassment, pride or a situation's complexity. Pride is a sin on its own. Embarrassment is possibly a sin as well if it reflects a lack of humility.

The ten commandments lack nuance, I believe a better guide is the seven deadly sins and cardinal virtues.

You said, "Some are more sanctified than others." Life is a test of faith that very few will pass. "Few will be called."

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

I think restitution must be made to the best of our ability even if it is a great hardship.

No you don't have to repent and make restitution for sins you can't be expected to know you committed, it is obvious you can't. Faith is not broken in this case as you are willfully disregarding you obligation.

I believe that God will withhold his forgiveness in cases of ignorance, embarrassment, pride or a situation's complexity. Pride is a sin on its own. Embarrassment is possibly a sin as well if it reflects a lack of humility.

The ten commandments lack nuance, I believe a better guide is the seven deadly sins and cardinal virtues.

You said, "Some are more sanctified than others." Life is a test of faith that very few will pass. "Few will be called."

Tim

The Bible does not teach that our life on earth is a test that we must pass in order to enter heaven. It teaches that the human race is lost due to sin (we've already failed). It is only because of God's work through Jesus that anyone can be saved. Salvation is a gift from God and cannot be earned.

There is no idea of "breaking the faith" in the New Testament when a Christian fails or even willfully sins. Jesus told Christians to be perfect, but never said they would be rejected and not forgiven when they are not.

Christians cannot live like the devil, but God doesn't get out of their car when they exceed the speed limit either. God is exceedingly patient with his people. Jesus' "yoke is easy and burden is light."

[dtknowles]

The Bible does not teach that our life on earth is a test that we must pass in order to enter heaven. It teaches that the human race is lost due to sin (we've already failed). It is only because of God's work through Jesus that anyone can be saved. Salvation is a gift from God and cannot be earned.

There is no idea of "breaking the faith" in the New Testament when a Christian fails or even willfully sins. Jesus told Christians to be perfect, but never said they would be rejected and not forgiven when they are not.

Christians cannot live like the devil, but God doesn't get out of their car when they exceed the speed limit either. God is exceedingly patient with his people. Jesus' "yoke is easy and burden is light."

The Bibles might not teach that life is a test but you must live before you can be saved. You must show you are worthy before you are saved so you don't have to call it a test but you can pass or fail.

Salvation must be earned by keeping faith with the teachings of Jesus. Saying you love Jesus with all your heart will not save you if you don't follow his teachings.

No God does not get out of the car when you drive like the Devil, you have up to the moment of your death to repent and make amends. You say God is patient but he ends our life whether we are ready or not. I think his patience is limited.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

The Bibles might not teach that life is a test but you must live before you can be saved. You must show you are worthy before you are saved so you don't have to call it a test but you can pass or fail.

Salvation must be earned by keeping faith with the teachings of Jesus. Saying you love Jesus with all your heart will not save you if you don't follow his teachings.

No God does not get out of the car when you drive like the Devil, you have up to the moment of your death to repent and make amends. You say God is patient but he ends our life whether we are ready or not. I think his patience is limited.

Tim

The Bible teaches we are ALL unworthy to be saved. No one is saved because he is worthy.

The Bible clearly shows no one earns salvation. It is a free gift that can only be lost by not trusting in the work of Christ.

The Bible does show where God ended the life of some people. But it also shows that peoples' death comes at their own hands, the hands of others, accidents, illness, etc. In other words, God is not the cause of everyone's death nor does he decide when each person dies.

Do you think if a Christian is driving down the road at 100 mph fully knowing it is wrong, crashes and dies without being able to repent for speeding that he is lost?

[dtknowles]

The Bible teaches we are ALL unworthy to be saved. No one is saved because he is worthy.

The Bible clearly shows no one earns salvation. It is a free gift that can only be lost by not trusting in the work of Christ.

The Bible does show where God ended the life of some people. But it also shows that peoples' death comes at their own hands, the hands of others, accidents, illness, etc. In other words, God is not the cause of everyone's death nor does he decide when each person dies.

Do you think if a Christian is driving down the road at 100 mph fully knowing it is wrong, crashes and dies without being able to repent for speeding that he is lost?

If he was committing suicide for a selfish reason then yes. I someone else suffers because of the crash, maybe. If he just lost control and went off the road and crashed, maybe not.

You can't earn a stairway to heaven but by your acts you can fulfill much of Jesus' mission. Passivity is probably not enough. Those saved will be but a few. The bar is high and we are all sinners.

Tim