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Thread: Jesus says, buy a sword?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wv109323 View Post
    I will also add that "the Word is sharper than a two edged sword" was not a fighting sword but a large knife sharpened on both edges. This was used like our butcher knife to divide meat. Two edges meant that the knife could be used twice as long before needing sharpened. Of course the sharper the knife the easier to divide meat.
    Except that the Roman gladius was a two edged sword. It was what most at that time would think of when a sword was mentioned. Most of Jerusalem probably saw them at least once a week, maybe more often.
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  2. #42
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    Jesus said to buy a sword meaning :
    1] Times are about to get tougher and I will not be here to protect you.
    2] Two is enough, don't "go overboard" with preps. If the goal is to be in Heaven with Him, then death is not to be feared or dreaded. Preach the Gospel and declare Good Tidings but don't expect life to be easy. If you think it was, search out Pauls' life.
    Last edited by MT Gianni; 07-01-2017 at 01:03 AM.
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  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    NAKED; but armed well! Word of my LORD!
    Great post!
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  4. #44
    Boolit Master Cold Trigger Finger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    "It is enough" possibly means "I have nothing more to say about the matter." Two swords was not enough for 11 guys going in different directions, so I don't think Jesus meant two swords were enough.

    The disciples were a lot like many of today's preppers. Jesus told them (i.e., each of them) to take money (purse), food (bag) and a sword on their future travels and they fixated upon the weapon.

    The sword was for defense against bandits that they might encounter on the roads. Money is necessary while traveling to buy things and food is also needed.

    Things were going to be different for the disciples after Jesus departure and the instructions changed.

    Edit: I have heard people claim the "sword" should be taken figuratively (God's word). But this would demand that everything else Jesus listed should be taken figuratively also. There's not justification for this other than some people do not like weapons.

    Excellent post. Spot on !
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  5. #45
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    I'm not sure about the answer to the OP's question, and I'm comfortable with that. I seem to do better and fail less when I'm pondering questions like this. But I DO know that He also said, "A strong man armed keepeth his house in good order." So it seems to me that Christ acknowledged the simple necessities of this world, so full of evil, and one of those things is the simple dangers posed by "outlaws" and those who'd abuse us heavily. And since "Thou shalt not kill" is more specifically translated, or at least by those I have come to trust most with their translations, as "Thou shalt not murder," which is a whole 'nother connotation in the instruction!

    I've actually become glad for questions like this that I have no real answer or opinion on. They keep me studying and thinking and considering, and that keeps me out of trouble!

  6. #46
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    I just read a passage this morning bearing on this. You know the story of the young shepherd David going out to met the 9'9" Goliath. David killed The Philistine with a good throw from his sling right? Actually he knocked him out with the stone, and the giant did a face plant. Then David took Goliath's own sword, killed him and lopped his head. Sorta made a mockery of the mighty weapons of war. Earlier, at their initial confrontation David said " the LORD does not save with sword and spear; for the battle is the LORD's, and He will give you into our hands." Read this in I Samuel 17. I recalled a story from Zechariah (4:6) that goes, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts. So it seems that the sword is an incidental artifact in a battle the Lord has joined. My part is to be prepared but make sure I'm on His side in a conflict.
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  7. #47
    Boolit Master Cold Trigger Finger's Avatar
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    Great point. Hogtamer. And my view also. I don't want to shoot anything that The Lord doesn't want me to . And rely on The leading of The Holy Spirit ! I view a firearm in many ways like any other tool I have . Hard for me to stay warm in the winter without a chainsaw and an ax or splitting maul. Hard hats have saved my life or health at least 5 times. Can't build a home without a framing hammer , saw , and level.
    However, I have been in enough life threatening problems where I needed a good gun, and had one , but still the positive outcome was From The Lord.
    I trust my trusted firearms to be reliable and suited for their designed job. But trust God for keeping me and mine safe.
    You are being watched.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master claude's Avatar
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    While there may be some ambiguity in whether the stone sinking into the forehead caused the death of Goliath or the parting of the head from the body caused his demise, the take away I get is that The LORD will indeed deliver your enemies into your hand when it is His will. The "trick" I suppose, is to be confident enough in our understanding to know when it is necessary to do so.

    I pray I am never faced with that particular dilemma, and for healing for those who have.

    1Sa 17:49-51 KJV And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth. (50) So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David. (51) Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.

  9. #49
    Boolit Mold
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    Without posting quotes, it has always been my understanding that it was prophesied that the Messiah would be betrayed and taken in the company of thieves and bandits.
    He knew the time had come for his arrest.
    He asked if the Disciples had any bags.
    They told Him yes.
    He asked if they had any swords.
    They told Him no.
    He instructed them to get swords.
    They reported they had two.
    He told them two swords were enough.
    He was dotting the iís and crossing the tís.

    What I canít get my head around is the adventure of the fig tree.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by nicky4968 View Post
    Without posting quotes, it has always been my understanding that it was prophesied that the Messiah would be betrayed and taken in the company of thieves and bandits.
    He knew the time had come for his arrest.
    He asked if the Disciples had any bags.
    They told Him yes.
    He asked if they had any swords.
    They told Him no.
    He instructed them to get swords.
    They reported they had two.
    He told them two swords were enough.
    He was dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s.

    What I can’t get my head around is the adventure of the fig tree.
    The cursing of the fig tree was one of two miracles that Jesus did that were destructive (the other being the herd of swine). The fig tree was symbolic of Israel which continuously failed to bear fruit.

  11. #51
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    I believe He was implying that for the next few days or longer it would be tough to be a man with a Galilean accent. As we know sometimes it is enough to print a weapon to avoid confrontation, sometimes it needs to be drawn and sometimes it needs to be used. I feel the Savior was telling his chosen Twelve not to be wimps. I am not sure if that is a command for all or just those men.
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  12. #52
    Boolit Master Thumbcocker's Avatar
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    Jesus and the disciples were living in an area under roman occupation. Roman rule was harsh and they valued order a lot. Many Jews felt that the temple establishment was in bed with the Romans. The high priest prayed on behalf of the emperor. All other Roman subjects prayed to the emperor as a deity. The temple priests were walking a fine line trying to placate the Romans and their fellow Jews. Jesus was planning something big in Jerusalem. His entry into the city mocked a Roman triumphal parade with him riding on a donkey. It was a huge hit with the crowd. His challenged to the money changers caused a major disturbance and he was almost arrested but was protected by the crowd.

    Also I am pretty sure that there were more folks from the Jesus movement in Jerusalem during Passover. One gospel (forgive me I am not very good at chapter and verse) mentions 72 others being summoned by the 12. The three years of Jesus' ministry follow a pattern of a revolution. A small carefully selected group as the inner circle who are carefully instructed. Taking your case to the people and getting a following and finally the big event. The area Jesus was traveling and preaching in was dirt poor, heavily taxed, (the Romans expected you to pay for the benefit of their civilization) and had a history of unrest.

    I tend to think that Jesus wanted a showdown with the priesthood. Flaunting the law in the temple area would bring on a trial on religious charges but not on Roman charges. Since Rome had the exclusive right to impose capital punishment his trial would have been at a religious court. Jesus was a powerful orator and with Jerusalem full of poor rural Jews he could have used the trial to bring his grievances to the common people and force a change. I think the temple elite made a deal with the Romans to get Jesus tried on sedition charges ( capital punishment) and hopefully cut the head off the rebellion.

    It has always bothered me that the rest of the disciples were not hunted by the Romans to the ends of the earth. Roman rule tolerated no dissent and close associates of a person plotting against Roman rule would have been targets of reprisal. I think this was more of the backroom deal.

    Just my thoughts on the subject.

    In short I think Jesus had at least some armed disciples as bodyguards.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbcocker View Post
    Jesus and the disciples were living in an area under roman occupation. Roman rule was harsh and they valued order a lot. Many Jews felt that the temple establishment was in bed with the Romans. The high priest prayed on behalf of the emperor. All other Roman subjects prayed to the emperor as a deity. The temple priests were walking a fine line trying to placate the Romans and their fellow Jews. Jesus was planning something big in Jerusalem. His entry into the city mocked a Roman triumphal parade with him riding on a donkey. It was a huge hit with the crowd. His challenged to the money changers caused a major disturbance and he was almost arrested but was protected by the crowd.

    Also I am pretty sure that there were more folks from the Jesus movement in Jerusalem during Passover. One gospel (forgive me I am not very good at chapter and verse) mentions 72 others being summoned by the 12. The three years of Jesus' ministry follow a pattern of a revolution. A small carefully selected group as the inner circle who are carefully instructed. Taking your case to the people and getting a following and finally the big event. The area Jesus was traveling and preaching in was dirt poor, heavily taxed, (the Romans expected you to pay for the benefit of their civilization) and had a history of unrest.

    I tend to think that Jesus wanted a showdown with the priesthood. Flaunting the law in the temple area would bring on a trial on religious charges but not on Roman charges. Since Rome had the exclusive right to impose capital punishment his trial would have been at a religious court. Jesus was a powerful orator and with Jerusalem full of poor rural Jews he could have used the trial to bring his grievances to the common people and force a change. I think the temple elite made a deal with the Romans to get Jesus tried on sedition charges ( capital punishment) and hopefully cut the head off the rebellion.

    It has always bothered me that the rest of the disciples were not hunted by the Romans to the ends of the earth. Roman rule tolerated no dissent and close associates of a person plotting against Roman rule would have been targets of reprisal. I think this was more of the backroom deal.

    Just my thoughts on the subject.

    In short I think Jesus had at least some armed disciples as bodyguards.
    Interesting! & Thanks! for taking the time to type it out & share it.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    This reply is to everyone who lean toward the belief that this sword (and two swords) are NOT long Iron knives.

    "and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

    If the sword isn't a literal sword, what would the Disciples be buying?
    Buy the Word?
    Buy the Knowledge?
    Buy The Spirit?
    I tend to believe we have a winner here.

    The Old Man and the Sea has been picked apart by every two-bit high school English teacher under the sun, and been set forth by them as a parable for just about every worldly condition you can think of. . .when it's entirely possible that Hemingway was just telling the story of an old guy slugging it out with a monster fish.

    We've all heard it said that you can use statistics to "prove" anything you want, and much the same can be said of figurative interpretations. If the newspaper says "Bob was killed when hit by a truck being driven by Joe", what it most likely means is that Bob is in the morgue with the imprint of Joe's hood ornament stamped on his ***. It probably does NOT mean that Joe said something that was so surprising to Bob, that Bob was rendered senseless, as if fatally hit by a truck. It probably does NOT mean that Joe is a tax collector who places such a financial burden on Bob that he was rendered as helpless as a man fatally hit by a truck. It probably does NOT mean that Bob is some kind of criminal and that Joe is serving as the swift hand of justice providing a cautionary example to society by smiting the evil-doer with the surety of a speeding F250. . .yet such are the reaches that people make because the plain version is incompatible with the way they want to see things. Yes, such figurative finagles are sometimes helpful in getting a point across - but there's a time to draw a line. Go too far down that road of saying "but what it REALLY means is. . .", you'll have the B.S. flag hoisted against you more often than not.

    If I chose to believe in God, I would have to conclude that he created the world as a Darwinian distillery in which most things are trying to roll over most other things to advance their own interests - may the best set of traits ultimately win. In that un-warm and un-fuzzy place, it seems perfectly reasonable for an earthbound incarnation of God (or just the thoughtful leader of any group making their way) to tell his favorite folks that they'd better think about packing heat if they want to preserve that which is near and dear. If he tells them a certain level of heat (two swords) is sufficient for the moment, it reflects an understanding that a tiny band isn't going to survive against the world on force alone, and that some guile and persuasion will be required.

    "You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone" - Al Capone got it; it would seem Jesus did too.
    WWJMBD?

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  15. #55
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    You guys are twisting yourselves into human pretzels trying to shoe horn the passage into a pre-existing theory about Jesus. It just could be that Jesus is bigger than any one person's or group's theology. I just could be that this is one we will have to ask Jesus what he meant when the day comes.

    Somebody once asked Billy Graham if he was bothered some things he didn't understand in Scripture. Graham's response was; " It is the things I do understand in the Bible that bother me, not the things I don't understand.".

    There are some folks than can not live with Biblical ambiguities and simply must make everything fit into a box. I am not one of those folks, I can live with ambiguity of all kinds.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  16. #56
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    The cursing of the fig tree As Jesus stated - (paraphrase) I am The Son of God - you didn't provide for Me when I desired. It was NOT the season for fig fruit! As is stated, the rocks and hills shall call My name even if no others will. Yes, I've heard the other version.
    As for the swords, He is about to leave the earth and they are on their own and will face evil doers so need to protect themselves (like Paul). The Romans (at this time) did not pursue as Jesus was NOT a threat to them as he was to the Jewish elite. Paul ran into the same problem in cities he visited.
    Last edited by popper; 01-12-2018 at 04:21 PM.
    Whatever!

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    The cursing of the fig tree As Jesus stated - (paraphrase) I am The Son of God - you didn't provide for Me when I desired. It was NOT the season for fig fruit! As is stated, the rocks and hills shall call My name even if no others will. Yes, I've heard the other version.
    I have never seen a fig tree in my life so I can only go by what I have read. A fig tree that had leaves on it should have had fruit. This tree had done something unusual, developed leaves early in the season without developing fruit. The tree was suggesting something about itself that was not true. If you take the tree to be symbolic of Israel, you can see a comparison. Israel had an outward appearance of being in proper relationship with God, but didn't produce actions that were expected. Mark 11:22 seems to suggest that Israel's problem was her lack of faith.

  18. #58
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    I was always taught that the Christ of the New Testament was the God of the Old Testament.
    If that is so, then the idea that carrying and using a sword to defend oneself is against Christ's ideology may be ignoring what He allowed in the Old Testament.
    In 1 Sam. 30 we have the story of David's wives being taken captive, and the people being upset with David for allowing it to happen. So David turns to the "Lord" and asked what he should do. The "Lord" (Jehovah) told him to go get them. David and his men did so and killed every one of them.
    Was that wrong? Overkill? No where is there any criticism that what David and his men did was wrong.
    Too often people try to ignore what happened in the OT, rather than using it with the NT to understand things better.
    That is a much different situation than what faced Christ in the Garden, when Peter drew his sword. Christ and His disciples were facing probably close to 1000 armed soldiers, and it would have been suicidal to resist. The officer in charge was a "chiliarchos" (John 18:12), and in the Roman army a "chilarchos" was a Captain in charge of 1000 men. Resistance would have been futile and was not part of Christ's plan.

  19. #59
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    Fig is a late summer crop that produces on new growth. Evidently ancient figs were pollinated by wasps, not bees. One of the early food fruit crops in the Med.
    "12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”". Explains it all. I added the bold.
    Whatever!

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Fig is a late summer crop that produces on new growth. Evidently ancient figs were pollinated by wasps, not bees. One of the early food fruit crops in the Med.
    "12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”". Explains it all. I added the bold.
    I don't see where anything was explained above.

    Even though it was not the season for fruit, Jesus expected that there would be something to eat as indicated by the leaves. The tree was suggesting something to Jesus that was not true. I am giving Jesus the benefit of the doubt here, having faith he knew he could expect something to eat from a tree with leaves on it. In other words, I don't think he was mistaken about his expectations.

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