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Thread: Jesus says, buy a sword?

  1. #61
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.
    Do you really think that the Son of God, who could cause "May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” - not to know when figs were in season? If rocks can call out the name of Jesus, a fig tree should know also. Please do not deny the power and authority of my God.
    Edit: that may have sounded harsh/wrong, sorry.
    The verse is not in first tense, nor allegorical tense, so I'd have to say it is as an observance by others. Not a preaching/teaching, nor a self 'proclamation', an observed event. I've heard the allegorical theology, as referencing the Jewish nation and it's inability to follow Gods commands, definitely does apply, however IMHO it is more about Authority.
    Last edited by popper; 01-26-2018 at 08:35 PM.
    Whatever!

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.
    Do you really think that the Son of God, who could cause "May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” - not to know when figs were in season? If rocks can call out the name of Jesus, a fig tree should know also. Please do not deny the power and authority of my God.
    Edit: that may have sounded harsh/wrong, sorry.
    The verse is not in first tense, nor allegorical tense, so I'd have to say it is as an observance by others. Not a preaching/teaching, nor a self 'proclamation', an observed event. I've heard the allegorical theology, as referencing the Jewish nation and it's inability to follow Gods commands, definitely does apply, however IMHO it is more about Authority.
    So you are saying this event was primarily to show Jesus' authority? That just doesn't make sense to me.

    More than one scholarly source asserts that there should have been some fruit on the tree (as indicated by the leaves) even though it was not full blow fig season. To think any differently suggests Jesus was being a bit unreasonable.

    This begs the question, "Was Jesus ever mistaken?" I think we see he was on a couple occasions (to be wrong is not a sin), but I don't think this was one of them.

  3. #63
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    And the fig tree withered at once To consider it any more than a demonstration of His authority (like walking on water, healing, calming the sea) brings up many ramifications that you need to answer. Is He saying Israel is forever cut off from God? If so, then 1) why any references to (new) Jerusalem? 2) Crusades, Inquisition, holocaust are just political battles, not spiritual. 3) Israel has (and Islam) no spiritual claim on the land. 4) It is the END of the covenant between God and the Jews. I can't claim to be right, just stating now you have lots of rabbit holes to investigate. Many historical events to examine if one follows some of the seminary taught paths.
    Not to beat a dead horse, but.
    Lets consider another, the rich young ruler. Wants to join Jesus's group. You're the leader of a mission trip to Peru & Ecuador. Donald Trump a wants to join your group. He'll provide chopper & limos for trans. and pay the bills. Of course he'll bring the S.S., assistants, liaison, etc. You understand you are now just part of his entourage. What do you tell him? Your group would love to travel 'in style'. Do you try to explain to him/them that it 'won't work'? What do you use as a teaching moment to your followers? Just 'make something up' - inject a word of wisdom/truth?
    Why do I add this? After Jesus cursed the fig tree (and it died forever!!), there was a 'teaching moment'. What lesson to be learned ( I just used Trump's position as an example ) ? Yes, somebody will bring up this teaching (allegorical?) moment from scripture.
    Last edited by popper; 01-27-2018 at 12:19 PM.
    Whatever!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    And the fig tree withered at once To consider it any more than a demonstration of His authority (like walking on water, healing, calming the sea) brings up many ramifications that you need to answer. Is He saying Israel is forever cut off from God? If so, then 1) why any references to (new) Jerusalem? 2) Crusades, Inquisition, holocaust are just political battles, not spiritual. 3) Israel has (and Islam) no spiritual claim on the land. 4) It is the END of the covenant between God and the Jews. I can't claim to be right, just stating now you have lots of rabbit holes to investigate. Many historical events to examine if one follows some of the seminary taught paths.
    Not to beat a dead horse, but.
    Lets consider another, the rich young ruler. Wants to join Jesus's group. You're the leader of a mission trip to Peru & Ecuador. Donald Trump a wants to join your group. He'll provide chopper & limos for trans. and pay the bills. Of course he'll bring the S.S., assistants, liaison, etc. You understand you are now just part of his entourage. What do you tell him? Your group would love to travel 'in style'. Do you try to explain to him/them that it 'won't work'? What do you use as a teaching moment to your followers? Just 'make something up' - inject a word of wisdom/truth?
    Why do I add this? After Jesus cursed the fig tree (and it died forever!!), there was a 'teaching moment'. What lesson to be learned ( I just used Trump's position as an example ) ? Yes, somebody will bring up this teaching (allegorical?) moment from scripture.
    As I understand stuff, the death and resurrection of Jesus brought the end of the Old Covenant. Israel (as a unit) remained outside the New Covenant due to her rejection of the Messiah. Israel will remain outside until she realizes Jesus is the Christ and accepts what God accomplished through him. The Church has taken Israel's place as the people of covenant privilege, i.e., favored by God and charged with sharing God's revelations with the world.

    With this in mind, it is logical to see the cursed fig tree standing for Israel. Israel outwardly seemed to be in proper relationship with God through temple worship and the sacred teachings thus having something to offer the world. But in reality she had continually rejected God's offers which culminated in the murder of the Messiah. At this point she was cut off.

    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

  5. #65
    Boolit Man UKShootist's Avatar
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    Is 'living by the sword' suggesting s professional sword user such as a soldier or assassin? Or does it mean anyone who uses a sword? I would suspect the former perhaps?
    The lion shall lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won't get much sleep.

  6. #66
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    As I understand stuff, the death and resurrection of Jesus brought the end of the Old Covenant. Israel (as a unit) remained outside the New Covenant due to her rejection of the Messiah. Israel will remain outside until she realizes Jesus is the Christ and accepts what God accomplished through him. The Church has taken Israel's place as the people of covenant privilege, i.e., favored by God and charged with sharing God's revelations with the world.
    I agree. The point I am trying to make is the Jesus used the fig tree event as an example, else if it were an exact 'replica', until she realizes Jesus is the Christ can't be true. The tree died permanently, no chance of 're-birth'. Like I previously stated about the 2 swords, if none were present, the ear would not get cut off, Jesus couldn't put it back on and show the Jews (by an event) his Divinity. We cannot say that this was not an orchestrated event.
    Whatever!

  7. #67
    Boolit Buddy docmagnum357's Avatar
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    I have studied this intently. " It is enough" means that is enough talk about this and it was dismissive, like I would say to my wife, " That's enough of that." The sword and bag and scrip were literal, because when he had sent them out before they didn't even carry food. People along the at fed them and met their needs. Christ was telling them that their evangelism would no longer be under direct miraclulous provision, much like the mana being cut off from the Hebrews. God still cares, and he still provides and protects, but we have to do our part as well now. Miracales haven't ceased. They are more for a sign to the unbeliever now. Romans 13 makes it pretty clear we are not to fight the established government. God tells us several places in the bible that he sets up kings. "Resist" is different. Paul was lowered over the wall in a basket to hide from the san hedren. What about outlaws, bandits, thugs, etc.? We almost are obliged to deal harshly with them, even to killing them if they are murderers or kidnappers, etc. House breakers were under no protection from deadly force. So, submit to established authority, deal harshly with outlaws, be prepared for hard times, earn and save some money. But still depend on God. Make sense?
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    I agree. The point I am trying to make is the Jesus used the fig tree event as an example, else if it were an exact 'replica', until she realizes Jesus is the Christ can't be true. The tree died permanently, no chance of 're-birth'. Like I previously stated about the 2 swords, if none were present, the ear would not get cut off, Jesus couldn't put it back on and show the Jews (by an event) his Divinity. We cannot say that this was not an orchestrated event.
    It is my understanding that parables and allegories in the Bible should not be pressed too far. Many times words are used in the Bible that we think of as concrete, but were not at the time the original texts were written or spoken. Lengths of time often fall into this category.

    But in this case, that generation of Israel (First Century) never produced fruit for the kingdom of God again. In the last 2 thousand years, what has Israel done to contribute to God's mission? The answer is nothing since her official stance is that Jesus is not the Messiah. Even if Israel were to have a nationwide revelation that Jesus is the Christ, she would join the Church. Israel's unique contribution as a "blessing to the whole world" ended around 30AD. The Church has taken this position.

  9. #69
    I always thought there was something fishy going on in Gethsemane. It was a garden, not the Winter Palace or Tienanmen Square of Jerusalem. We can debate whether words are to be taken literally, but if a cohort is, it is about 500 men. That is a lot to find together, in a less than vital part of a city where the Romans were present "in aid of the civil power". It seems unlikely that the Romans actually liked the Herods, any more than America liked the Somozas, Batistas and Diems it has found expedient to support. I don't suppose it meant much to them if some cult priest chose to let his ear fall off. Pontius Pilate is now known to have been a prefect, still a minor provincial governor but military rather than the basically revenue-managing and civilian procurator.

    So why "put up his sword in its sheath" and walk off with his hardware about him (swords with sheaths tend to be on the literal side), rather than just "stop it, you fool" or drop it and walk off quietly like Michael Corleone? Jesus had a far better claim to kingship, by blood, than the highly unpopular Herods. It doesn't seem impossible that the Romans intended the Herods to persecute Jesus in a proper religious trial, and lose - until Pilate a bad colonial governor if ever there was, lost his nerve in the face of crowd pressure.

  10. #70
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    something fishy going on in Gethsemane
    Definitely! After peter cut off the ear, why did the Roman troops not attack (him)?. Why did that event even happen? if Jesus had not asked 'do you have a sword?", would it have happened?.
    When you read scripture, read it like you were there. Just a collection of coincidences?
    If you think that, consider what the results would be if Jesus body had just been tossed on the dung heap with the rest of the bodies. No unused tomb to be sealed, no armed guards to watch over it, no miraculous moving of the stone, etc.
    Is what happens in your life just coincidence or is there really a PLAN!.
    Whatever!

  11. #71
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Definitely! After peter cut off the ear, why did the Roman troops not attack (him)?.
    My guess is because of Jesus' demonstration of power. When he identified himself "they (soldiers and others) drew back and fell to the ground." Then there was the healing of the guy's ear. When Jesus told the arrest party to "let these men (disciples) go" they probably figured they needed to obey.

  12. #72
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    IIRC, one was chased and ended up without any clothes. There is also no other mention of the apostles or disciples using (or needing) a sword in the rest of scripture. Did they have, carry utility knives - probably.
    Whatever!

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