Powder placement

[sawinredneck]

Afront, it really would be nice to have a "General reloading" section for questions that don't really fit elsewhere, please and thank you again!
I've been reading about powder placement a lot lately, "powder forward" and "powder rearward".
Ok, first, why does this matter? Then why does it matter? Why is this more specific from powder to powder? Meaning why does it matter with one powder but not another? How do you load and shoot to accommodate the needs of each load when shooting?

[William Yanda]

(in a W C Fields voice) Practice, m'boy, practice.
It will vary with the primer used, and the ease with which the powder in question is ignited, and the percentage of the case filled......etc.

[JBinMN]

I have an opinion about such things, but lately folks have been a bit touchy about how one "types" an opinion & seem to not think about the lack of "spoken" word influences what is communicated... I am hesitant, but will try to offer an opinion...

In short, as far as the "powder forward vs back" thing.... I think it may be because of those who focus on velocity & performance , as in shooting for competition or something like that. IMO, most folks just want to shoot, try to do it inexpensively, & do so with a reasonable amount of precision & accuracy.

Personally, most of the time, I try to just use a powder than is efficient (and I can use little s possible to be economical), but at least fill the cases up to where they are not effected by an "up/down" variable.

Recently, I have been using some 8 year old or so Red Dot, just to see how it does in most of my firearms & at the same time use it up. I have had good results for the most part, but I in using it I see where there may be an issue with powder fwd. vs aft for some of the rounds. So, rather than worry about powder Fwd/Aft, I will just change back to using another powder.

So, As far as "I" am concerned, once I find an efficient, cost effective, clean powder... that is where I might get concerned about the Fwd/aft deal, or if I was to get into competitive stuff.

Until then though.. I just want to have some fun, load some rounds & shoot with reasonable accuracy when doin it. I will worry about the fwd/aft thing when it becomes something to be concerned about in "my world".


I am sure others have different opinions & I am looking forward to learning more.

Interesting!

[GhostHawk]

It matters IMO because if the powder is forward, how much of the heat from the primer will actually reach it? Instead of setting all of the powder off in one smooth pressure wave you might get a slower burn. A variable is a variable. Change one thing and other things are effected.

Like accuracy.

Like JBinMn I have been shooting a lot of Red Dot. I don't think it is very fussy compared to some powders. I think it ignites easily, and it is fast enough that it does not make a lot of difference where it is.

Compare that to another powder, a stick powder like 4895, slower, things change.

Personally I like the Red Dot for a number of reasons. A it is is available in bulk, in several locations. B in 8 lb jugs it is not too expensive. C Buy a couple of those 8 lb jugs and your hazmat charge gets spread a lot thinner. D Instead of 45-55 grains of Rifle powder I can accomplish nearly the same thing with 4-8 grains. Kaching! Savings!

And I only have to stock one main powder for shotguns, pistols, rifles.

It does depend on what you want. If you want the absolute bleeding edge of speed, Red Dot is probably not your best choice. I can say is that what at times seems like amazingly small amounts of Red Dot can show some very very nice accuracy in rifles and pistols. My #1 load, 4.6 grains from .223 to .357 with time spent in .300BO, 7.62x39. My #2 load, 13 grains in .444marlin. Power to burn, 300 gr cast, hits with a whump, and easy on the shoulder.

With a little research, a little time spent in load development, and some enjoyable time spent shooting I have found good loads for everything.

Well not so much for the SKS in 7.62x39. Ohh it will shoot it, just does not cycle the action. If you don't mind pretending it is a K31 having a bad hair day. Heck go for it!

Accurate too.

It is ALL a balancing act, each variable is important.
Red Dot works for me, YMMV.

[Wayne Smith]

Think about it a bit - imagine the 38Special case - if you don't have one ask around and get one. Put between 2.8-3.0gr Bullseye in it. See how much space is left, and if the powder is against the bullet base (gun held pointed down) how far the primer has to send stuff to ignite the powder. Do you think it may be more efficient if the powder is at the base of the case? (Gun held pointed up)

Now imagine the same condition (small amount of fast powder) in a 30-06 case. See the issue?

[JBinMN]

I do not know if Wayne realized it or not, but Bullseye & Red Dot are very comparable to one another in many ways. His example is a good one & I currently have some 38 Special loaded with 3.0 or 3.1 Red Dot down in the load room. I could have used Bullseye and been charging with almost the same amount & been in specs easily as the max charge for Bullseye is usually higher than RD.

Anyway, I still think it really would not matter a whole lot to the average 'Joe or Jane" when shooting. The comparison, from what I understand, of the velocity difference from Fwd/Aft is not that critical in handgun loads if just used for "plinking/target shooting/etc." when using smaller loads of powder compared to case volume. I do see where it is likely to affect those shooting longer distances(like rifle) & competitions where extreme accuracy is required & velocity changes may affect the projectile at distance. Or, even perhaps for LEO,Military & Self Defense needs. But I just have a hard time seeing how it is important to the average folks.

Which is why I am subscribed to this topic. LOL ( Although, if I have the time, I may research this a bit more & change my mind that way if needed...) I hope more folks add to the discussion.

[OS OK]

One of the members mentioned this when I was working the HP thread I did with a snubbie.
I tried a series of 5 shot chronographed loads of exact loads of Bullseye, ??? 3.0 grains under a 150-8 grain Keith HP ???,...I can't remember which position was the fastest load, I think it was 'powder to the rear' but the difference was only 41 FPS avg. on a 750 FPS load, I tried it three ways...Powder forward, then rearward and then I just shook the gun to distribute it all over at random.

[Wayne Smith]

I do not know if Wayne realized it or not, but Bullseye & Red Dot are very comparable to one another in many ways. His example is a good one & I currently have some 38 Special loaded with 3.0 or 3.1 Red Dot down in the load room. I could have used Bullseye and been charging with almost the same amount & been in specs easily as the max charge for Bullseye is usually higher than RD.

Anyway, I still think it really would not matter a whole lot to the average 'Joe or Jane" when shooting. The comparison, from what I understand, of the velocity difference from Fwd/Aft is not that critical in handgun loads if just used for "plinking/target shooting/etc." when using smaller loads of powder compared to case volume. I do see where it is likely to affect those shooting longer distances(like rifle) & competitions where extreme accuracy is required & velocity changes may affect the projectile at distance. Or, even perhaps for LEO,Military & Self Defense needs. But I just have a hard time seeing how it is important to the average folks.

Which is why I am subscribed to this topic. LOL ( Although, if I have the time, I may research this a bit more & change my mind that way if needed...) I hope more folks add to the discussion.

Yeah, I know that - but when I saw it and the light bulb went on in my brain I was using BE!

[sawinredneck]

One of the members mentioned this when I was working the HP thread I did with a snubbie.
I tried a series of 5 shot chronographed loads of exact loads of Bullseye, ??? 3.0 grains under a 150-8 grain Keith HP ???,...I can't remember which position was the fastest load, I think it was 'powder to the rear' but the difference was only 41 FPS avg. on a 750 FPS load, I tried it three ways...Powder forward, then rearward and then I just shook the gun to distribute it all over at random.

And this is kind of my original question, ok, shoot a round, tilt the gun back or forward, then level the gun out to fire. Doesn't the powder now just lie flat across the bottom of the case?
Ok, we put some filler in below the bullet, that should hold powder rearward, but you really wouldn't want to put in filler, then powder, I could see poor ignition. Unless you are shooting straight up or straight down how can you really be sure?
Also, at around 750fps a 50fps deviation is quite a bit, how much deviation would one expect at 2000fps? Just pondering is all.

[Hick]

When in doubt test it like OS OK said. I do this. Some particular light loads it matters, others it doesn't, and whether or not it matters will depend on what precision you are seeking.