Reloading EverythingTitan ReloadingInline FabricationLoad Data
Lee PrecisionRotoMetals2RepackboxMidSouth Shooters Supply
Wideners
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 55

Thread: First Test Patches

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    791
    So are you saying that if that the exposed bore ride nose is soft enough to bump up to groove that I might have an issues with leading proceeding the patch which can tear up the patch?
    Correct. The bore-ride nose on some designs (.30 cal, 6.5mm, etc.) actually have lube grooves to prevent the nose from leading the lands - or grooves for that matter, if they obturate that much. The softer the alloy, the shorter the bore-ride nose length you can leave bare, because the longer the unsupported column of lead, the more it will obturate, mostly at it's base. The lands will guide the nose, but the grooves offer no structural support.

    I guess if I have leading with these relatively soft bullets and some nose unwrapped then I can cast some harder bullets to see if it gets rid of the issue. If the issue is gone at that point it's probably from he hard alloy not being able to obturate.
    Harder boolits OR shorter exposed nose length. Of course, this means seating them correspondingly deeper in the case. I have seen people generously anoint the nose with some smeareable soft lube and they seemed to meet with success, but it was also a one-at-a-time range exercise. Can't imagine slipping those in a bandolier and heading for the field.

    I've seen some swaged bullets with almost a SWC type shoulder and a reduced diameter shorter nose. I'm guessing it's to solve the issue I'm running into now.
    That could be - there's a bozillion different mold designs out there. It makes sense to have a PP mold that also has a bore-ride nose intended to be patched to bore diameter, say, .441 or .442 for a .450 bore. Another option is to have a two-diameter Lyman type "in-out" sizing die cut with your particular bore dia. and throat dia. so a patched boolit could be inserted and brought to the needed finished diameters. First, though, do some shooting to find what works before investing in a custom tool.

    I don't recall whether you said you were using smokeless or black. The .45-70 is a voluminous case and I suspect that satisfactory velocities with smokeless could be achieved even with the boolit patched halfway up the ogive and just seated deeper in the case. That's conjecture on my part - the veteran Sharps shooters could chime in here and correct me if I'm on thin ice regarding pressures with that idea. If you're using black, you'll need the case volume for propellant, and a bore-ride design with an appropriately patched nose becomes desirable.

    I'm with OverMax on the jacketed vs. patched friction question. Copper readily transmits heat which may reduce heat transfer to the steel. Paper is a fair insulator as well as being not very slippery. The boolit obturates outward against the patch on firing (or is squeezed down by the throat, or both) and the texture of the paper is pressed into the lead while the paper presses with equal pressure against the barrel steel which remains smooth, hence, it's easier for the patch to stay with the boolit. The same thing can be observed when unwrapping a patched boolit which was patched at full diameter and then sized.

    The patch will be shed immediately on exit from the muzzle and torn to a puff of confetti. Sometimes I find tattered strips a few feet out front. OverMax is quite right with saying the longer the patch stays on, the less accurate they'll be.
    Last edited by yeahbub; 06-27-2017 at 02:25 PM.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    Quote Originally Posted by yeahbub View Post
    Correct. The bore-ride nose on some designs (.30 cal, 6.5mm, etc.) actually have lube grooves to prevent the nose from leading the lands - or grooves for that matter, if they obturate that much. The softer the alloy, the shorter the bore-ride nose length you can leave bare, because the longer the unsupported column of lead, the more it will obturate, mostly at it's base. The lands will guide the nose, but the grooves offer no structural support.

    Harder boolits OR shorter exposed nose length. Of course, this means seating them correspondingly deeper in the case. I have seen people generously anoint the nose with some smeareable soft lube and they seemed to meet with success, but it was also a one-at-a-time range exercise. Can't imagine slipping those in a bandolier and heading for the field.

    That could be - there's a bozillion different mold designs out there. It makes sense to have a PP mold that also has a bore-ride nose intended to be patched to bore diameter, say, .441 or .442 for a .450 bore. Another option is to have a two-diameter Lyman type "in-out" sizing die cut with your particular bore dia. and throat dia. so a patched boolit could be inserted and brought to the needed finished diameters. First, though, do some shooting to find what works before investing in a custom tool.

    I don't recall whether you said you were using smokeless or black. The .45-70 is a voluminous case and I suspect that satisfactory velocities with smokeless could be achieved even with the boolit patched halfway up the ogive and just seated deeper in the case. That's conjecture on my part - the veteran Sharps shooters could chime in here and correct me if I'm on thin ice regarding pressures with that idea. If you're using black, you'll need the case volume for propellant, and a bore-ride design with an appropriately patched nose becomes desirable.

    I'm with OverMax on the jacketed vs. patched friction question. Copper readily transmits heat which may reduce heat transfer to the steel. Paper is a fair insulator as well as being not very slippery. The boolit obturates outward against the patch on firing (or is squeezed down by the throat, or both) and the texture of the paper is pressed into the lead while the paper presses with equal pressure against the barrel steel which remains smooth, hence, it's easier for the patch to stay with the boolit. The same thing can be observed when unwrapping a patched boolit which was patched at full diameter and then sized.

    The patch will be shed immediately on exit from the muzzle and torn to a puff of confetti. Sometimes I find tattered strips a few feet out front. OverMax is quite right with saying the longer the patch stays on, the less accurate they'll be.

    Awesome.
    I'm using smokeless so I'm guesssing I will have a little more room to play with powders but I am hoping to stick to the heavy end of the spectrum for bullets so that might limit me a little.
    I'm going to see how these Lyman designs work and then I can decide on either having the chamber reamed or maybe have a custom mould with a .440 bore ride nose that will work well with my chamber.
    All of this after some testing and if need be a chamber cast
    Thanks again guys.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    791
    A chamber cast will make plain details only a boroscope will make visible. Somewhere I saw some plastic material to make chamber casts which pours in thick and takes an hour or two to set. It makes very detailed castings, but I can't remember the name of it. The model-makers at work used it. Well, somebody will know.

    Smokeless will afford you greater flexibility in coming up with loadings that do what you need. It would be good to solicit the assistance of the .45-70 veterans of this game, they'll have a good bit of info. Got 3031? Or AA5744? They're a good place to start.

    I'd exhaust the possibilities with the numerous available options before I'd consider changing the chamber/throat. You needn't ask how I know that. Put some on paper and keep us posted.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    First range trip.
    This is all of the patch material I could fine from 9 rounds I shot tonight. The newer patches were much cleaner. The first few were dark. Seems it cleaned up the bore a bit.


    Top left target was shot with 405 Lee. 50/50 COWW/Pure coated with hi-tek. 32 grains of H4198
    Top right target was the same bullet patched
    Bottom right was my buddy shooting the patched load.
    Targets are about 8.5"X11" sheet of paper.
    I was losing light so the tang sight wasn't easy to see, and I was resting the front on a range bag and the rear on a folded padded rifle case (excuses for the fact that I'm not the best shot anyway) but this tells me that it's shooting very much like the coated loads. I think I can actually do some load development with some better bullets and make this paper patch thing work for me. Barrel was clean and shiny when I was done.
    My buddy shot the last group about 45 minutes after I shot the first one... he was late to the range so he had even less light.



    I'm happy with the results proving my process is ok so far. These were coated so there would be no lead even without the patch but I'm thinking that they would be fine in bare lead that was patched.
    The patched held on the bullet beautifully during sizing and seating with no ripping. The amount of shrink into the lube grooves was visible.


    I also realized that when I cut my patches if they're just a touch longer than the last batch I cut that I can roll with a little less drag and they wrap a tiny bit shorter and the same goes for a batch just a tiny bit shorter I can keep the bullet in the groove on the patch board and press down while rolling it in the groove pinched between thumb and forefinger to give a little tighter wrap and stretch the patch bit more.

    Someone on the forum suggested cutting strips and then stapling the end together to keep everything straight while cutting patches to length and that helped a ton too.

    Thanks again guys! I'll keep updating and asking questions as I go. I'm about halfway through "The Paper Jacket" for the second time now.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    791
    I notice your patched group is appreciably "rounder" Than the coated group. Both show promise, seems to me. What was the distance? How did you lube the patch and what with? The recovered patch in the photo shows external and internal layers. Apparently the external layer is being worn through slightly in a coupe of places, but the inner wrap is intact. This should improve as the patches smooth the finish in the bore. I patched for a .375 Win which showed similar characteristics due to reamer marks on the lands from the barrel maker. Lapped it - slick as glass afterwards. No more wearing through the patch.
    Last edited by yeahbub; 06-29-2017 at 12:04 PM.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    I'm going to say the group was due to my shooting skills all around. Next time I'm going to bring a rest and go in full daylight to take some variables out of it.
    All shots at 50 yards.
    Patch was lubed with a tiny smear of bore butter (only lube I had handy that was thin enough to apply easily) rubbed on with my fingers then sent through the sizing die which barely kissed the paper.
    I'm not sure if that is internal and external patches or not. The darker pieces of patch were the ones I found after shooting about 5 rounds. The after the rest were shot I went back searching and all of the patch material I could find was much lighter. They all appear to be cut through about the same, only the lube groove area not being cut. I was thinking the patch material was cleaning the bore and the second batch of shots they just came out much cleaner.
    I'll have to take some shots over a cleaner patch of range next time. This spot towards the far left side was full pf patchy grass so it was hard to find patches.
    What's the difference between wearing through and cutting through a patch? Cutting is done on the sharp edge of the lands and wearing is just the top of the lands being rough and abrading its way through the sides of the patch?

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    791
    Your surmise is correct, patches exhibiting cutting will be along the lands, though not all barrels do this. New barrels with sharp edges are more prone to it, and muzzleloader barrels with deep rifling which stretches the patch on obturating to the bottoms of the grooves. (Sometimes, hard alloys like linotype/monotype can be hard enough to clip through the paper on the forward edge of the driving band when being sized in a die or in the throat.) As the rifling is polished with use, this tends to diminish. It's also affected by the thickness/toughness of the paper used. I haven't noticed it to affect accuracy noticeably in my experience. Wearing through occurs in places where the patch is pinched between boolit and barrel at the driving bands. Old fouling, a frosty, faintly rusty or slightly pitted bore all present opportunities for wear on the patch, though generally it won't go through .005 of patch. Abused/neglected barrels with pronounced roughness can often be recovered enough to use PPBs very well with a regimen of cleaning and pressure lapping to clear out the trash and smooth the edges of pitting and produce a bore of consistent surface from end to end. Variations in bore condition make accuracy difficult. Metallic deposits in the bore change from shot to shot, so it isn't quite the same barrel two shots in a row. The genius of PP is that such deposits are eliminated from the equation and, aside from powder residue, the bore remains consistent. Many an old boomstick has been hauled out of a closet after decades of being ignored, and some knowledgeable shooter has effectively cleaned it for maybe the first time since it was sold, exposing galvanic corrosion under the old copper or lead deposits. With attention to detail, these can be effectively reclaimed and do very well.
    Last edited by yeahbub; 06-29-2017 at 12:54 PM.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    I thought we anted the rifling to cut the patch?
    I'm halfway through The Paper Jacket so as i'm actually getting into patching and learning I'm still re reading the basics that I haven't read in over a year.
    Thanks again!
    Can't wait to cast some more bullets this weekend. The I can wrap them up and load them.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    791
    I've read that too. I've not been able to find much evidence of strips from the rifles I patch for, but I've never noticed it made a difference. Strips or confetti, it's off the boolit. They're accurate, which is what I care about. Some of the old barrels cut for PP have rifling .002 deep, less than the thickness of one layer of most of the papers used. Can't cut strips if it can't get through the paper.

    By the way, did you change the format of your photos? Suddenly I can't see any of them, just some photobucket link which I can't open. My computer just updated - were they all photobucket links? I could see them fine yesterday. Not sure what changeded here. . . .

  10. #30
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    Hmmm makes sense.
    Yeah photobucket stopped allowing people to post pictures on forums without paying big subsrictiom fees. I had to switch the website I use. I'll have to repost the pics later

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    791
    I see. Have you tried just loading them directly using "insert image"?

  12. #32
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    Photobucket doesn't allow that function unless you pay $400 a year or something crazy now.
    IMGUR is my new preferred photo hosting website.




    Cast some of these yesterday. The mold seems a little out of whack but made a consistent bullet. Couple of them patched just to see how they look. I rolled patches at 3 different length and the two longer ones were a little tight but would chamber. The one that was about 3/8" past the case mouth chambered perfectly.
    I switched my patching technique around a little bit. I was dipping my patches in water and they rolled on and dried nice, but I tried just a little wipe of water on the patch and I noted that less water made it stick to the patching board more, which gave more resistance (drag because it stuck to the board) while rolling and made the patch tighter.
    I learn something new every time I sit at the bench.

    I'm thinking of making 2 dovetail or T type slots in my patching board running from left to right parallel to the bullet groove. I figure I can set up a perpendicular board on the T slots that can be adjusted left and right and tightened down.
    I align my patch to the outer edge of the board and use the sliding fence to butt the nose of the bullet against. That should keep every patch at the same location.
    Does that draw a good mental picture?
    That should eliminate one more variable, and the damp paper (probably going to switch to a sponge to dampen) should eliminate the variable wrap length due to stretch.

    These patched seemed to dry nicely by the morning and they seemed to wrap well onto the ogive, I think I'm going to stick with the patches cut with the fiber, they shrink on the ogive without any pleating and if I stick with the larger bore ride bullets that I want to lean towards then I don't really need to wrap (and can't due to the short throat) to the ogive anyway.
    Am I thinking right? The patches hold on tight until it's time to fall off, but are there any other benefits to a tighter patch (cut against the grain for more stretch and shrink) that I'm overlooking?

    Thanks again!
    Happy Independence Day!
    Last edited by Michael J. Spangler; 07-04-2017 at 11:42 AM.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    791
    It's a miracle!! I CAN SEE! . . . Okay, that's waaaaay better. I don't have any such photo posting arrangement. I just post them directly to the Cast Boolits page from my PC. That way they'll be on the site for as long as the website exists. I hope your Fourth was good as well.

    Those three PPB's look great. Playing with different degrees of wetness on the patch can facilitate different amounts of stretch, strength, etc. Most papers have "sizing" and coatings on them for stability and taking ink properly or whatever it's intended for. If the paper is made just a little wet, the sizing will affect how it acts. Soaking it generally dissolves the sizing and it's not noticeable. Drafting vellum is noticeably slick when just made wet, hence, I put patches in a bowl of tap-hot water and stir them around for a minute to remove it. This is probably why your paper is behaving differently when just slightly wet. Papers intended for contact with food, like plain butcher paper, have nothing on them. They are wood pulp papers and are better with partial wetting (spray bottle) to preserve some strength so they survive wrapping.

    Your perpendicular nose-stop sounds like a worthy modification. A datum line for the patch and precise placement of the boolit. Sounds like they should be consistent. Since I patch over the ogive (any lead that might touch the barrel gets patched) and by hand, I place the patches on the ogive to where the patched portion is always small enough to enter the throat. They vary a little, but they get the job done.

    Good move on cutting the paper relative to the grain. Early in my attempts, I learned that strips cut from the long edge of a drafting sheet will not shrink at all, and a consistently tight patch was very difficult to do. Cutting them from the short edge had a much better effect, plenty of stretch on wrapping and plenty of shrinkage on drying. Sounds like you have a good grasp of the issue. To patch or not to patch the bore-ride nose, it depends how the nose stands up when fired, but we went over that above. Only experimentation will tell you how much acceleration/velocity the unpatched nose will take.
    Last edited by yeahbub; 07-05-2017 at 11:49 PM.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    Quote Originally Posted by yeahbub View Post
    It's a miracle!! I CAN SEE! . . . Okay, that's waaaaay better. I don't have any such photo posting arrangement. I just post them directly to the Cast Boolits page from my PC. That way they'll be on the site for as long as there's the website exists. I hope your Fourth was good as well.

    Those three PPB's look great. playing with different degrees of wetness on the patch can facilitate different amounts of stretch, strength, etc. Most papers have "sizing" and coatings on them for stability and taking ink properly or whatever it's intended for. If the paper is made just a little wet, the sizing will affect how it acts. Soaking it generally dissolves the sizing and it's not noticeable. Drafting vellum is noticeably slick when just made wet, hence, I put patches in a bowl of tap-hot water and stir them around for a minute to remove it. This is probably why your paper is behaving differently when just slightly wet. Papers intended for contact with food, like plain butcher paper, have nothing on them. They are wood pulp papers and are better with partial wetting (spray bottle) to preserve some strength so they survive wrapping.

    Your perpendicular nose-stop sounds like a worthy modification. A datum line for the patch and precise placement of the boolit. Sounds like they should be consistent. Since I patch over the ogive (any lead that might touch the barrel gets patched) and by hand, I place the patches on the ogive to where the patched portion is always small enough to enter the throat. They vary a little, but they get the job done.

    Good move on cutting the paper relative to the grain. Early in my attempts, I learned that strips cut from the long edge of a drafting sheet will not shrink at all, and a consistently tight patch was very difficult to do. Cutting them from the short edge had a much better effect, plenty of stretch on wrapping and plenty of shrinkage on drying. Sounds like you have a good grasp of the issue. To patch or not to patch the bore-ride nose, it depends how the nose stands up when fired, but we went over that above. Only experimentation will tell you how much acceleration/velocity the unpatched nose will take.
    I just wish I could shoot more so I can test out these variables more often and get down to the right options to shoot the best. I guess I should enjoy the journey too and not just the destination right?
    So this is the patch board modification. My buddy ASP ripped down my board and used his dado set to put some T slot material in the board and use the ripped piece as my fence. I just need to screw down the T slot and I'll be in business.
    he did a really nice job and being an engineer came up with about 60 ways to do it better or just different. I was nice to have a $1500 cabinet saw to square everything up compared to my portable table saw.



    Now I can align my patch with the edge of the main board, and use the fence to keep the meplat in the same spot, thus the patch in the same spot.
    Once I get into the reloading room I'll post some pics of the board with a bullet and patch on it. It's wide enough where I can accommodate any length patch up to about 5" long or well over 12 gauge projectile if my sleepy math serves me right. The board is a little over 5" wide so I can accommodate a wide enough patch and long enough bullet to pretty much handle anything that's going to be within our normal casting bullet range also.
    I'm very happy with the board and look forward to working with it.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    Ok So the patch board works well but the bullet nose tends to drag on the rough cut surface of the fence. I would suggest if someone makes on to cover the faces of the fence with shim stock or maybe paint to to smooth it out.

    So tonight I wanted to patch some more of my 405 grain bullets and I figured I would try to cut some patches against the grain.
    Well I noted that I needed patches significantly shorter to avoid starting a third wrap.
    I also noticed that ANY little tiny variation in my wrapping technique translated exponentially to the results of the wrap stretch. When I dipped the patches in the water completely and didn't have any drag while wrapping they would wrap pretty consistently. When I tried a little wipe of water the paper was a little more crinkly and the resulting drag on the patching board would end up starting a third wrap due to the stretch. I tried to vary my pressure and wrapping technique but couldn't find consistency the way I did with the cross grain and dip, or better yet with the with the grain dipped or wiped with water.

    So I started to think....
    Though there is more shrink cross grain, I can put more stretch pressure on the with the grain and more consistency so I think the patches will have enough shrink to hold on well and the whole cross grain patch thing is more trouble than it's worth.
    So far all that I've patched with the grain has shrunk nice to grab the lube grooves. I'm going to check out the cross vs with the grain dried patches side by side tomorrow to see how much difference there really is in shrinking tight.
    Though that's for me at my current level of skill. I'm sure once I have a couple hundred thousand of these patches down I'll be able to get some more consistency with either method.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    Ok So Side by side it seams the cross grain patches do shrink on better for sure.
    The with the grain patches do shrink enough to see the lube grooves impression a little bit. The cross grain shrinks in a lot more though.
    I cut more with the grain patches last night and I can patch them way more consistent like that. I'll stick to that for now. Going to cast some more 405s and some 405 hollow bases today.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    Scored 5 pads of 25% staedlater vellum at staples today $3 a pop on clearance. I figured for that price I might as well grab all of it and figure out if it works after the fact.
    Seems to wrap well but it must have a lot of sizing because it takes a while to wet. I might try warming the water or adding some baking soda if memory serves me.
    It's about .0025" thick. I'm curious to what it dries to. I have a buddy looking to get an oversized bore in a trapdoor to shoot well. I think he's going to have to try some of this paper.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,108
    25% rag vellum patched bullets dried to about .462" Sized down to .460 nice and easy. Wondering how they will shoot vs the tracing paper.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    791
    It's always nice to find a good deal. Is it smooth or that cockle finish stuff? My preference would be for smooth but they'll both work. You like cutting with the grain? Apparently it works, since you're getting sufficient shrinkage to stay tight and the proof is on the target. A single-shot also affords options unavailable with a magazine rifle. Drafting vellum cut with the grain has led to patches I could spin the boolit inside of, no shrink I could see. They shot, but they slipped easily and wouldn't tolerate being worked through a lever action. Cutting across the grain fixed that problem as you've noted. I deliberately cut the patches short and stretch them until the ends meet, which makes for PPB's which will survive rough handling, but I'm not sure 25% papers will withstand that kind of stretching. Wood pulp papers won't.

    A few posts ago, I mentioned rolling the wet patched boolit on a textured soft surface to stretch and tighten the patch. You probably thought of this, but that extra step could be done with the initial wrap if that material were on your patch board. Not sure as to the details, but hey, it's an idea.

    There have only been a couple of papers I had trouble with when shooting. They were both ultra-thin onion skin/tracing types that were difficult to wrap with, not much strength, and had little inclination to shrink on or stay on the boolit. I can't remember if I ever hit the target, but after a serious lead removal session or two, I decided I must be doing something wrong. These were early attempts with no one to consult and I didn't really know what I was doing. Eventually someone clued me in that exotic papers aren't needed, bank note paper (100% rag) was best but others work well too.

    Reducing the diameter by .002 is about enough to compress the paper to full density. Is it shiny smooth afterwards?

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check