The ".38 magnum!"

[sawinredneck]

I've got a neighbor that drinks too much, talks too much and just doesn't think at all, I'm sure you all know one, hero to zero in one beer or less!
He managed to talk a friend of his into selling him a new .38 special Ruguer SP101, really nice gun!
He kept coming down here trying to talk guns with me and kept brining up the .38 magnum, "I need me some .38 magnums for that bad dude, that gun is just sweet, I need some magnums for it!"
I'd explain there was no such thing but they did make +P and +P+ loads that were hottter and his gun could easily shoot them. I'd explain how it all worked and he'd drop it.
Next day, we'd start all over! I'd send him links that explained the difference between all of them, "Thanks dude, that makes perfect sense now!"
Next day, we'd start all over!
I'd had enough! I took some .357mag brass and cut it down to .38 length and loaded up five rounds with some Barry's plated hp's, I went right in between the top .38 loads and the bottom .357 loads. I knew I wasn't going to blow the gun up, I could ream it and shoot .357's in it fine!
He shot them, didn't save the cases of course, but he's never once brought up .38 magnums again? Guess they were a bit too warm for him?
Another thread right now is discussing the FBI load and what it is vs what it was vs what it could be.
Then I read about how much easier .38 brass extracts from snubbies and found a Buffalo Bore load, 158grn at 1,100fps.
I then had a crazy idea, how hard could I push cut down .357 brass in a .357 gun, thus the .38 magnum?
Now I already know it's not a smart idea and I can hear it now "Your going to end up shooting one in a .38 and blow the gun up!" I don't own a .38, these would only be shot in my personal .357's (I hope to get another soon).
But just how hard could/should a person think about pushing these? I know "start low and gradually work up", but would the end game be worth it? Would I get a significant enough increase in velocity to make it worth the time trimming the brass? (Not aneasy thing mind you!)
In the case of the loads I made for the neighbor, I opted for .357 brass just as a cya move, in theory .38spec brass should have held up with those loads, but I wanted to be certain!
So, tell me how stupid, crazy or genius on this one?

[Hickok]

Attachment 198229

[tazman]

This begs the question--What is the end game here? Is there some purpose other than just seeing what can be done?

[sawinredneck]

Right now, just pure speculation on if higher velocities could happen with the shorter case.

[sawinredneck]

Attachment 198229

If you don't ask, you'll never know!

[Blackwater]

Some folks learn from watching or listening to others. Some have to pee on the electric fence to learn. And now that it's not PC to shout at such obvious fools, and tell them they're gonna' die if they try what they want to do, we have .... the "Darwin Awards." Your neighbor sounds like sooner or later he's gonna' end up getting his "award?" Not much you can do. Fools do what fools want to do. You do NOT, however, have to watch them do it!

[sawinredneck]

Ok, let's look at this from another angle. We know the .357 can withstand more pressure than the .38spec case. We also know Buffalo is getting 1,100fps from .38spec, but that's the limit. What could happen if you had the higher pressure of the .357 in a .38 length case?
I can't be the only person to have ever wondered this?

Yes, my neighbor is a very "special" type! He managed to "upset" a friend of mine that happens to be an SO, he's on the "watch for DUI" list in the entire county now. Not a smart move!

[Outpost75]

Last time I had a fellow ask me a similarly stupid question like that, I assembled some black powder .45 ACP loads for him with 255-grain lead-conical .45 Colt slugs for him to shoot a match with. He never bothered me after that.

[sawinredneck]

Last time I had a fellow ask me a similarly stupid question like that, I assembled some black powder .45 ACP loads for him with 255-grain lead-conical .45 Colt slugs for him to shoot a match with. He never bothered me after that.

Very niiiiiiiice!

[OS OK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTxqDcefQlU . . . https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0SO...Xv0Hz9GJURViw-

There's a You-Tube channel out there that has done this same basic thing with .38 Special cases...I argued with him at the time but got nowhere with him...just don't load hot .38 Specials over +P+ and 'in +P+ cases' only, regardless what you intend to fire them in....there will come along a 'goof' who will load them into a .38 Special...Murphy will make sure it happens!

[sawinredneck]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTxqDcefQlU . . . https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0SO...Xv0Hz9GJURViw-

There's a You-Tube channel out there that has done this same basic thing with .38 Special cases...I argued with him at the time but got nowhere with him...just don't load hot .38 Specials over +P+ and 'in +P+ cases' only, regardless what you intend to fire them in....there will come along a 'goof' who will load them into a .38 Special...Murphy will make sure it happens!

"Coming to you from the hotlead zone, huh, huh."
That guys a total tool! Not sure if him or elvisammo are more annoying?
But that's not the same idea, that's pushing the .38 case to its limits, and maybe beyond? Then hoping the gun holds it all together for you! I know the .357 case is stronger, so it should take more pressure, safely, than the .38 case.
I need to look at the case lengths again, I forget the length difference, maybe leave the .357 cases .100" longer than the .38's so they can't be put in a .38 gun? Then I'd get more fps and better extraction?
Really, I'm just spit balling here. Maybe it's an incredibly bad idea, I dunno? Maybe there is nothing to be gained with the stronger case?

[CHeatermk3]

Yeah, you need to check the case lengths again...

[Petrol & Powder]

I try to stay away from people that are unintelligent. There's a difference between ignorance and a lack of intelligence.

An ignorant person may have the capacity to learn but has not been exposed to the information and is therefore ignorant.
I am often ignorant and I openly admit it. Hopefully I can change that situation and learn if I have the opportunity.

A person that lacks intelligence is in a completely different situation. They lack the ability (or often just the desire) to learn and cannot be helped. They aren't worth your time. Move on.

[Larry Gibson]

"We know the .357 can withstand more pressure than the .38spec case. We also know Buffalo is getting 1,100fps from .38spec, but that's the limit. What could happen if you had the higher pressure of the .357 in a .38 length case?"

That is not the case (pun intended). Modern made 38 SPL cases can handle the same pressure level as 357 magnum cases. That is not to be confused with the same loads, just the same pressure level. Loading the higher pressures (again, not the same loads but the same pressure) in the 38 SPL would result in no more damage to the 38 SPL case than the 357 magnum case. Research the 38/44 loads of past intended for N Frame S&W 38 SPLs.

That leads us to the real difference between the 38 SPL and the 357 Magnum. It is in the guns (mostly older revolvers) made for them. Most older 38 SPL firearms are not made to handle 357 magnum level pressures. While both the 38 SPL and 357 magnum cases can handle the same pressures the firearms made specifically for each most often can not.

Larry Gibson

[sawinredneck]

"We know the .357 can withstand more pressure than the .38spec case. We also know Buffalo is getting 1,100fps from .38spec, but that's the limit. What could happen if you had the higher pressure of the .357 in a .38 length case?"

That is not the case (pun intended). Modern made 38 SPL cases can handle the same pressure level as 357 magnum cases. That is not to be confused with the same loads, just the same pressure level. Loading the higher pressures (again, not the same loads but the same pressure) in the 38 SPL would result in no more damage to the 38 SPL case than the 357 magnum case. Research the 38/44 loads of past intended for N Frame S&W 38 SPLs.

That leads us to the real difference between the 38 SPL and the 357 Magnum. It is in the guns (mostly older revolvers) made for them. Most older 38 SPL firearms are not made to handle 357 magnum level pressures. While both the 38 SPL and 357 magnum cases can handle the same pressures the firearms made specifically for each most often can not.

Larry Gibson

Well that settles this discussion easily! NOTHING. To be gained, that's all I wanted to know, thank you sir!
I guess if he ever asks again I can load him some squibs, wonder how long it'd take him to figure out a bullet didn't come out?
Nah, I'm not that mean, yet.

[dubber123]

Larry is right, there is no difference in the cases. I tried just what you are proposing 25 years ago, and found loads in either brass topped out at exactly the same point. I finally sectioned a 38 and a 357 case, and they were identical, web, walls everything.

[sawinredneck]

Thank you as well! Like I said, if you don't ask, you can't learn.

[M-Tecs]

As Larry stated the .38/44 Heavy Duty was the original 38 Magnum. https://americanhandgunner.com/the-3844-heavy-duty/

[FergusonTO35]

You can make some pretty serious .38's with Blue Dot or H4227 and magnum primers. I used to shoot 'em in my Marlin 1894 as, at the time, I had tons of .38 brass but very few .357's. These were right at the limit of published +P data and seemed to shoot about the same as factory lead bullet .357's.

[bob208]

go read skeeter skelton. then read about the .38-44 loads. which were light .357 loads in .38 cases.