Chrony Data: Rem FBI Load Duplication with Unique, Red Dot, BE-86

[35remington]

I seem to do pretty well, velocitywise, with the non Plus P loads in 38 such that when controllability in repeat fire is factored in with the light weight and shortish grip present in my 638, that's where I figure I should be at.

Ed Harris's "full charge wadcutter" suggestion of 3.5 Bullseye does around 780 with the Lee tumble lube wadcutter, with the same amount of Titegroup going maybe 5 to 10 fps faster.

It takes a couple of tenths more of Herco to equal whatever Unique does. With Alliant's non plus P suggestions as currently posted Power Pistol outruns the rest of the pack in both Plus P and non Plus P loadings.

Have not tried any BE 86 yet. Understand it may give similar performance to PP with somewhat less blast.

In terms of giving acceptably low velocity variation from powder position variation Titegroup does work well as long as bullet seating depth is not much shallower than a 158 provides. The top end speeds are somewhat lower, though, and Plus P loads are necessary to get velocities others like Power Pistol attain at standard pressures. If ballistic consistency is desirable that may be the way to go for low volume shooting use.

For any and all practice I see my 638 as a "standard pressure only" gun, both in terms of comfort for long practice sessions as well as "easy on the gun." Yeah, it is plus P rated, but sometimes less is more.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Mr. Gibson,

thanks for clearing that up about the 158 grain bullet. When I wrote that you previously said it was 150 grains, I was referencing these two old posts of yours:

1) "The "FBI 38 SPL load" is a +P load. This a 150 gr LSWC. I have pulled several Winchester bullets and they are dead soft at 5.5 -6 BHN."
at this link: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-quot-Hardness

2) "Winchester and Federals 150 gr HP Lead "FBI" load"
at this link: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-LSWC-HP/page3

Reading those two posts is why I thought that the Winchester FBI load used to be 150 grains instead of 158 grains. Thanks for clearing that up.

I am very grateful to you and all of the more experienced shooters for all this good information.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Forrest, I sure have enjoyed consulting that whole body of data you posted elsewhere, of which you have posted the summary here. One of the things your big data dump shows is that the big guys could improve the FBI Load so that it works more consistently, giving not an average of 800 fps, but a low of 800 fps and average of more like 850 fps. I wonder why they don't.

[Wayne Dobbs]

My best recollections of the FBI load was how well it worked in operational shootings of slow learners. You generally got full penetration, with a bullet in the clothing or just under the hide on the far side of the shootee and a bullet expanded to ~0.55 - 0.60. This was from 4" guns. From a 2" gun, there was less expansion, but the same general good results. It wasn't sexy and it didn't appeal to most of the gun writers of the day, but it was about as good as it got in a .38 Special.

[35remington]

I presume they have not worked to change the FBI load substantially because it is reported to work just fine just as they are doing it now. I suspect a speed increase would cause other problems regarded as lowering the overall desirability of the cartridge/bullet combo. That, combined with a pressure level that gets nobody in trouble is likely the reason why.

[Outpost75]

Chronograph data from .38 Special revolvers having 2" and 4" barrels, both guns having identical cylinder gap of 0.005",

.38 Special chronograph data, S&W Model 15, 4” REVOLVER, 0.005” cylinder gap 6-22-93.
Federal 125 Nyclad HP 852 fps, 25 Sd
Remington 148 HBWC 747 fps, 6 Sd
Winchester 148 HBWC 742 fps, 13 Sd
WCC87 Ball M41 130-gr. FMJ 748 fps, 21 Sd
Winchester Q4070 110-grain JHP +P+ LE 1062 fps, 39 Sd
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP +P 920 fps 21 Sd
Winchester Q4196 158-gr. LRN 793 fps, 10 Sd
Federal 158 LRN 808 fps, 16 Sd
Federal 158 LHP+L 38G 883 fps, 16 Sd
Federal HydaShok 147-gr. JHP +P+LE 965 fps, 33 Sd

.38 Special chronograph data, Colt Detective Special 2” REVOLVER, 0.005” cylinder gap 6-22-93
Federal 125-gr. Nyclad SWCHP 772 fps, 33 Sd
Federal HydraShok 147-gr. JHP+P+ LE 920 fps, 6 Sd
Remington 148-gr. HBWC 702 fps, 12 Sd
Winchester 110-gr. Silvertip HP 864 fps, 28 Sd
Winchester 125-gr. Silvertip +P 827 fps, 10 Sd
Winchester 148-gr. HBWC 697 fps, 18 Sd
Winchester Q4196 158-gr. LRN 728 fps, 24c Sd
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP +P 831 fps, 10 Sd
WCC87 Ball M41 130-gr. FMJ 718 fps, 31 Sd

[Low Budget Shooter]

Outpost, thanks for that trove of data!

[Low Budget Shooter]

On a previous thread, I posted the theory that Winchester must have significantly reduced the velocity on its FBI Load, maybe sometime before the FBI tests in 1989. I then received much fire from the members What Outpost75 just posted shows that same thing.

Before anyone opens fire on me again, please look twice at this data. The Federal FBI load is very close to the same, just a little faster. The wadcutter loads are at most 25 fps different, some of them higher. But the Winchester FBI load velocities for both the 2" and the 4" guns are 80 fps lower.

Load 1993 Data 2017 Data 2014 Data

Win FBI 2" 831 fps 750 fps 741 fps
Win FBI 4" 920 fps 839 fps
Fed FBI 4" 883 fps 892 fps
Win WC 2" 697 fps 709 fps
Win WC 4" 742 fps 764 fps
Rem WC 2" 702 fps 677 fps

1993 data is from Outpost75's post above.
2017 data is from LuckyGunner
2014 data is from Pocket Guns and Gear

Please note that all of the 1993 velocities are close to the 2017 velocities EXCEPT the Winchester FBI load. The 2017 velocity is much lower than the 1993 velocity. Please note that I grabbed another test, from 2014, of the same load, which also shows this significantly lower velocity.

Okay, so when did Winchester lower the charge in its FBI load?

Outpost75, was that ammo several years old when tested in 1993, or new production?




Winchester SWCHP +P

Pocket Guns and Gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y26O3W_Ke2g
Ruger LCR 1 7/8"
733, 758, 733, 737, 745 average 741

Lucky Gunner http://www.luckygunner.com/38-specia...rounds#geltest
Kimber K6s 2"
724, 738, 746, 757, 784 average 750

Lucky Gunner http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wa...-self-defense/
Kimber K6s 2"
Win WC 709
Rem WC 677
Fed WC 659

[Outpost75]

Ammo tested in 1993 was then fresh production. packaged in white box with blue and red printing exactly as Larry pictured.

Winchester did not change the specification VELOCITY with respect to the standard test barrel length, but changed the POWDER loading, which resulted in reduced velocity when fired from the shorter barrels. Change from radial copper to piezoelectric pressure measurement occurred about the same time, which also accounts for some of the discrepancy.

These are the current specs from Winchesters commercial product web site:
http://www.winchester.com/products/h...es/X38SPD.aspx
Product Symbol: X38SPD
Cartridge: 38 Special +P
Bullet Weight: 158
Muzzle Velocity: 890
Barrel Length: 4.00" Vented
Rounds Per Box: 50
Rounds Per Case: 500
Suggested Use:Personal Protection

The specs. on their LE page list velocity as 1050 fps. from the 7.7" SAAMI SOLID test barrel:
http://winchesterle.com/Lists%2FCata...4%2FX38SPD.pdf

Symbol: X38SPD – Winchester Super-X Handgun
Shellcase: 38 Special +P nickel plated brass shellcase with cap lacquer
Bullet: 158 grain Semi Wad Cutter HP
Powder Type: Clean burning
Primer: Winchester non-corrosive primer, boxer type
Accuracy: Product Mean of 4.0 inches Extreme Spread, 5 shot targets at 50 yards from a SAAMI test barrel
Velocity: 1050 ft/sec nominal at 15 ft, Fired in a 7.71 inch SAAMI test barrel
Energy: 386 ft-lb nominal at 15ft, Fired in a 7.71 inch standard SAAMI test barrel
Pressure: 20,000 psi maximum average
Waterproofing: Lacquer applied to primer annulus

[Low Budget Shooter]

Thanks again for all the info. I don't know why anyone goes to college anymore. A person can learn enough from you guys to keep him busy for years! I think some of you all have more firearms knowledge in your pinky than I have in my head.