Gibson, not Camp or Ayoob, right about Win vs Rem FBI Load Lead Softness

[Low Budget Shooter]

Okay, so did Win reduce velocity of load sometime in the 1980s?

[35remington]

I do not have an ability to compare the HP shape of the latest lot of Remington HP to Winchester HP as I do not have any new Remington to compare. Shot it a year ago. I am not answering because I do not have an answer.

From snubbies, I am told that the HP +P more commonly resembles a rumpled up WC than a mushroomed bullet when recovered from actual shootings. Due to clothing and attenuated velocity this makes sense. Thankfully I have yet to dig any 38 HP's out of people intent on doing me harm.

[35remington]

Since we probably do not have a statistically valid sampling of 38 ammo over time I am not sure anyone can provide an answer we can bet on. All I can tell you is what I have seen may bring into question definitive declarations absent statistically valid sampling.

[Outpost75]

It isn't purely a matter of alloy and striking velocity, it is also a matter of cavity geometry, force distribution and fluid flow. Good application for finite element analysis.

[GhostHawk]

I have yet to come to regret any information I obtained by reading and believing Larry Gibson. Period. YMMV, but for me, every fact I have checked (where possible) he has been right on, in the 10 ring, every single time.

So it is of zero surprise to me that he has outdone the experts.
A long long time ago, a dairy farmer told me a very simple fact of life.

"If your more than 50 miles from home, your an expert"

Based on the very simple fact that chances are no one knows you well enough to contradict you, or call your findings into question.

In the 40 years and more since I have seen a LOT of experts who could not pour water out of a shoe if the instructions were printed on the heel.

From what I can see, Larry on the other hand believes in testing every conceivable variable for himself. So he can truly comprehend and understand in the most accurate way exactly what is happening when we pull the trigger.

And he is good enough to share his data and his conclusions.

Unfortunately all too often it is pearls before swine. People can not accept that their preconceived notions might not be correct. So it is Larry who is wrong.

And if this little rant gets me in trouble, so be it. I call it the way I see it. Dead simple, dead honest, with no ill will or evil intent towards anyone. But if I ruffled your feathers, well that was not my intent. Simply one man speaking his honest opinion. And is not that what we do here?

[Outpost75]

I don't disagree with Larry and I heartily support independent empirical testing.

Winchester has used different lead alloys over the years, and sometimes adjusted to mitigate leading to meet contract requirements. Remington has always optimized their load to perform in the shorter barrels, and it has been a consistent performer since I first tested it in the 1980s.

Original specifications for the X38SPD specified velocity from a 4" vented test barrel with 0.008" cylinder gap. Performance suffered when fired from shorter barrels because some of the powders needed to meet the 4" barrel velocity spec. within the allowed pressure limits produce poor ballistic uniformity when fired from barrels shorter than 3".

[nagantguy]

I have yet to come to regret any information I obtained by reading and believing Larry Gibson. Period. YMMV, but for me, every fact I have checked (where possible) he has been right on, in the 10 ring, every single time.

So it is of zero surprise to me that he has outdone the experts.
A long long time ago, a dairy farmer told me a very simple fact of life.

"If your more than 50 miles from home, your an expert"

Based on the very simple fact that chances are no one knows you well enough to contradict you, or call your findings into question.

In the 40 years and more since I have seen a LOT of experts who could not pour water out of a shoe if the instructions were printed on the heel.

From what I can see, Larry on the other hand believes in testing every conceivable variable for himself. So he can truly comprehend and understand in the most accurate way exactly what is happening when we pull the trigger.

And he is good enough to share his data and his conclusions.

Unfortunately all too often it is pearls before swine. People can not accept that their preconceived notions might not be correct. So it is Larry who is wrong.

And if this little rant gets me in trouble, so be it. I call it the way I see it. Dead simple, dead honest, with no ill will or evil intent towards anyone. But if I ruffled your feathers, well that was not my intent. Simply one man speaking his honest opinion. And is not that what we do here?

Waaa waaaa waaa my feelings are hurt cause the grey box of treats ain't as good as the green on Wednesdays in July on odd years.
Just ruffling your feathers I see sound logic in your words and find arguments/debates about the virtues or deficiencies of one brand of ammos ballistics over another absolutely fascinating and I took no umbrage at your words and have found Mr.Gibsons research to be spot on the few times I researched and tested any of his theories/findings that were pertinent to my own interests or needs!

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Larry, I sent you a PM

[30calflash]

The info presented here gives us a chance to gain valuable knowledge not readily available in the general stream of things. With the production of lighter weight jacketed +p loads especially for 2" barrels, I would think you will see less tests and new info on the +P 158 SWCHP loads discussed.

If your the person who acquires a box for your personal carry needs, you may not have the access to be able to test such as shown here. That plus we don't have several boxes from various lots available to us, usually. I find that locally it's extreme hit and miss, they have the latest $25 per 20 rounds of whatever new stuff happens to be out, not the older 'formerly' popular.

The one thing that may help with the performance, and I hope others here can speak from experience, is we can check our revolvers with a feeler guage to see what kind of BC gap we're dealing with. I'm unsure as to what kind of performance change you would see with a .005 vs .008 gap in a 2" barrel. It is one thing that we can have some say over, even if it means taking a feeler guage with you to the LGS when looking at new 38's.

[Outpost75]

The expected change in velocity with standard-pressure .38 Special ammunition is about 10 fps for each 0.001" change in cylinder gap from Mean Assembly Tolerance of 0.006."

Therefore a 2" barrel gun assembled at minimum cylinder gap Pass 0.003"/Hold 0.004" would be expected to produce about the same velocity as a 4" gun at maximum accepted tolerance of Pass 0.008"/Hold 0.009".

The observed difference is likely to be greater with +P or .357 Magnum ammunition, due to differences in propellants used, but this approximation agrees well with with experience.

A difference of -30 to as much as -50 fps in going from a 0.005" to 0.008" gap is "normal," depending upon the ammunition used.

[Thumbcocker]

Wonder if mainstream ammo companies will try soft lead powder coated boolits for self defense ammo. I remember nyclad from federal in the early 80's but I think it died off.

[sawinredneck]

Wonder if mainstream ammo companies will try soft lead powder coated boolits for self defense ammo. I remember nyclad from federal in the early 80's but I think it died off.

It was killed off! They got labeled as cop killer bullets because the teflon let the penetrate a vest.

[lefty o]

i can pretty much guarantee you no centerfire bullet from any manufacturer is dead soft lead. heck even rimfire bullets have some antimony in them.

[lefty o]

It was killed off! They got labeled as cop killer bullets because the teflon let the penetrate a vest.

as of 2 to 3 yrs ago, federal still sold nyclads. since then, im unsure.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta great info in this thread, posted by guys whose opinions and experience I respect deeply.

Just some random observations I've made over the years........I have cast pure lead #358429s, sized them @ .359", and run them to 900 FPS in 38 Special brass from a 5" Model 10 and in 357 Magnum brass from a 4" Model 686. There was zero leading in either revolver after 50 rounds each, lube was Javelina BW/Alox 50/50. FWIW.

My 4" 686 (with .004" cylinder gap) consistently produces higher velocities with every load I have sampled than does my pre-Model 27 x 6.5" with its .011" gap. Yes, it needs some work.

If I ever carry a 38 Special in harm's way again, it will be filled with factory 158 grain LSWCHP +P loadings.

[sawinredneck]

as of 2 to 3 yrs ago, federal still sold nyclads. since then, im unsure.

Well, a little research, they pulled all of them in 2002-2003 because of a movie. They reintroduced the 38spl 125gr standard pressure load at the '09 SHOT show. I can find places with it listed but it's either listed as out of stock or discontinued. Other than overpriced listings on Armslist and Gunbroker, I can't find any for sale.
Interesting bit of history if nothing else.

[44MAG#1]

That was the KTW BRONZE jacketed teflon coated bullet. Not a teflon coated lead bullet labeled as a bullet that would penetrate a bullet proof jacket.
KTW teflon coated bronze jacketed not teflon coated lead.

[sawinredneck]

That was the KTW BRONZE jacketed teflon coated bullet. Not a teflon coated lead bullet labeled as a bullet that would penetrate a bullet proof jacket.
KTW teflon coated bronze jacketed not teflon coated lead.

You know this, I know this, but Hollywood doesn't know this and most of the general public doesn't know this, so "it was in a movie, it has to be true!"
Remember to big scare about the Black Talons? I had to educate a couple of cops after they commented "God I hate seeing these thing on the street!" They thought hollow points would penetrate their vests and kill them all in one shot!
Then the hysteria when Glocks first came out? But I'm getting off topic.

[Lefty Red]

A lot of good info.
But I take "Jello Results" tongue in cheek. Good for loose guidelines, but not the end all.

Lefty


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[ddixie884]

I thank all, for the info.............