hardening lyman#2

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I have successfully hardened my lyman #2 with.5% copper in it. I have also heard that lyman #2 doesn't heat treat. I know mine hardened an appreciable amount, but I don't have a tester to give you numbers.i know the copper is a grain refiner and helps, and so does arsenic from WW's and some hard shot. my question is, why do people say that you can't H/T lyman#2, and also how long can I expect this hardness to last. I think my actual % is 4.5%sn and 5.5%sb. will the copper and extra arsenic counteract the tins tendancy to cause age softening? thank you-Travis

[fredj338]

I've never heard that you can't heat treat #2. It has all the elements that allow for some gain in BHN.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

they ( I don't remember where I read this) say because of the high amount of tin,it won't properly heat treat, it will just soften back up after a while, that's why I use 4.5% tin and5.5%sb, that way if they are right that might help slow down the age softening process.

[Bzcraig]

It's the antimony that effects the leads ability to be heat treated. I also, have not heard that Lyman #2 won't HT.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

well like I said, I have successfully HT'd mine, I just wanted to ask about the age softening and also if any of you had experience with this rumor. like I said in the 1st post I don't have a tester, but I would guess that after a week or two to let it finish hardening, it is definetly at least 20bhn, probably not much more than that,the .5% copper probably adds to the arsenics hardening qualities. another related question. what velocities do you guys push your lyman#2 to (heat treated or not)? I would not hesitate to load mine to 2200-2300fps after HT'ing

[Dusty Bannister]

Rick Kelter writes in his article on Heat Treating Lead/Antimony/Arsenic alloys

Points for the bullet caster to consider

"The higher the tin content of the alloy the less the alloy will respond to heat treating and the faster it will age soften. (2-3% is fine unless your goal is 30+ BHN which is very rarely needed)"

Also, there are two recognized alloys for Lyman #2. Both have equal amounts of tin and antimony and your blend with copper is not one of them.

[OS OK]

http://www.lasc.us/LASC_Article_Index.pdf


You will find some excellent reading here about this..."just the facts Mam!''

charlie

Here's a sample of one of the articles...

Heat Treating Bullet Alloy
By: Rick Kelter
Top of Page

There is a great deal of information for the bullet caster in the article from "Key To Metals". The article was written mainly pertaining to strengthening lead alloys for the manufacture of lead/acid batteries but the principles are the same for bullet casters that need to strengthen their alloy.

Key Points of The Article

Lead-tin alloys age soften quickly.

Antimony is an effective method of strengthening lead.

Lead-antimony alloy can be strengthened by quenching.

Small amounts of arsenic have particularly strong effects on the age-hardening response of such alloys.

Heat treating and rapid quenching prior to aging enhance these effects.

The percentage of antimony greatly effects the amount of time for strengthening to occur when heat treating or quenching. The alloy containing 2% Sb clearly does not respond sufficiently to be considered as a possible alternative. The 4% Sb alloy, however, attains a hardness of 18 HV after 30 min.

An interesting point is that the metals industry refers to "strengthening" lead while bullet casters refer to "hardening". Strengthening is precisely what we need as bullet casters, the strength to withstand the pressure of our loads and the strength to take and grip the rifling without stripping and yet, not so "hard" as to not seal the bore.

[Char-Gar]

I have no doubt that #2 can be heat tempered. However, I see no reason to do so. There is no need for any alloy, either pistol or rifle, any harder than #2 under any circumstance.

The whole notion of heat treatment came about decades ago, when wheel weights were free for the asking and some rifle shooters wanted to hardened them to avoid using the more expensive alloys. Casters today seem to have forgotten the original purpose of heat treating cast bullets and just seem to think harder is always better, which is not true.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

a few years back, I heat treated some 94-3-3.
after a week it measured 24BHN.

I sent some of these to another member as samples about a month ago.
Anyway, just for kicks, I measured BHN, and they were 22. They were about 4 years old.

my conclusion is: Heat treated boolits with a Sn content over 1% will age soften, but not enough to worry about. Will Cu or As effect age softening? I bet it will, but not enough to worry about.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ok, well thanks for the info, that pretty much confirmed what I remember hearing, in fact I'm pretty sure I was remembering the article quoted above by os ok. lol I will try my rifle loads without treating, when I do I will update. thanks again-Travis

[fredj338]

Rick Kelter writes in his article on Heat Treating Lead/Antimony/Arsenic alloys

Points for the bullet caster to consider

"The higher the tin content of the alloy the less the alloy will respond to heat treating and the faster it will age soften. (2-3% is fine unless your goal is 30+ BHN which is very rarely needed)"

Also, there are two recognized alloys for Lyman #2. Both have equal amounts of tin and antimony and your blend with copper is not one of them.

Less but not none.

[popper]

Will Cu or As effect age softening? Nope. hardening, yes, softening, no.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

[QUOTE=Dusty Bannister;4050488]

"The higher the tin content of the alloy the less the alloy will respond to heat treating and the faster it will age soften. (2-3% is fine unless your goal is 30+ BHN which is very rarely needed)"

Also, there are two recognized alloys for Lyman #2. Both have equal amounts of tin and antimony and your blend with copper is not one of them

I am so close to 5/5/90 that you would never notice the difference unless I told you, with exception to the addition of the copper, which makes it a much tougher/BETTER alloy, in my journals I call it Triple 5 because its 5%sb/5%sn/.5%cu. I was going to do my next batch with 4.5sn and 5.5sb just because of the age softening thing, but now I don't think I need to make that change. since you wanted to nitpick my alloy , there is the "rest of the story" lol-Travis

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I may have confused a couple people, the alloy I refer to using and hardening successfully is 5/5/.5/90, the 4.5/5.5/.5/90 I am talking about is in the calculated stage and I was just about to weigh all the ingredients up and get ready to make a batch of that alloy. but like I said, I am going to stick with the full 5% of tin and 5%antimony, I am going to add some hard shot (1 1/2lbs) for a bit more arsenic, along with the copper sulphate (2lbs) for .5%Cu

[Defcon-One]

Travis:

I have to agree with Dusty. Your alloy may be the best in the world, a real discovery, but there is no way it is Lyman #2. The minute you ad or take anything away, like Copper, you change the mix and hence the alloy.

I don't think he was "nitpicking your alloy", I think he was telling you "it's not Lyman #2 alloy". He is right! Besides I kind of like "Triple 5".

[Oklahoma Rebel]

gotcha ,triple 5 it is,i guess its like the lubes, the more there are the more creative you have to get to name em'

[BK7saum]

Have you had your alloy analyzed after combining. You may be adding Cu from the sulfate, but something is replacing the Cu and leaving your alloy with the sulfate. I'd be curious about the final ratios after Cu addition. Is that why your assuming 4.5% Sn because of a 1/2% loss from the Cu conversion?

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yes, it is replacing some tin, and I do plan on having bne do some tests when I get what alloys I need tested gathered up, I will let you guys know, but either way if something is off I will correct it to get back to the original recipe! next I need a hp mold and some ballistic gel ( or a hog) to test how it does with those. the roundnose boolits (155 and 185gr lee) rivet/make a small 40-45cal mushroom in milkjugs, but these are round nose, and water isn't quite the best medium to test. so I have a fair amount of testing with this "Triple 5" alloy-Travis

[Oklahoma Rebel]

* round nose boolits are 30 cal fired at around 1800/155gr and 1600/185gr from a SKS, this is an estimate as i have no chronograph

[Jeff Michel]

If you formulate your #2 with wheel weights it will contain enough arsenic to respond to heat treatment. As pointed out prior, if you change the composition of #2, you no longer have Lyman #2.