Smokeless reloading for lever guns?

[rldarmstr]

I know that I am way behind the curve here but however we cut it I need to ask a few questions regarding smokeless reloading. I recently picked up a Win. 1886 in 45-70. I plan on getting involved in the lever gun silhouette matches. I went to my loading bench and also to the internet and decided on a powder (IMR4759) which I have a pound of. Naturally as I read and searched further I find that it is no longer being produced.

I know that Reloader 7, 3031, 5744 and others can be used in big cases like the 45-70. In an effort to keep the pain of buying several and trying them each I am asking for recommendations from shooters who have already gone that route and done the leg work. I'm not lazy but then too I don't need to reinvent the wheel.

I shooting a 405 grain flat nosed bullet and the distances are from 50 yards to 200 yards. The gun, of course , is the Win. 1886 in 45-70. I would prefer a powder that substantially fills the case like 4759 did.

Any recommendations on a smokeless powder, clean burning, consistent, in velocities between 1200 and 1600 FPS?

[Outpost75]

Either RL7 or IMR3031 are good choices in the .45-70 with 405-grain bullets. With #457193 Trapdoor loads are 37 of RL7 or 38.5 of 3031 for 16,000cup. In the 1886 you can go up to 44 grs. of RL7 or 53 grs. of 3031 for 28,000cup.

[ReloaderFred]

Is this an original 1886, or a recent reproduction gun? It makes a difference on how you might want to load for it.

For my hunting loads in my Marlin 1895, I use IMR 3031, but there are other powders that work as well.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[waco]

I get superb accuracy with a 405gr boolit and 42gr of IMR 3031. Nice and mild on the shoulder too!

[rldarmstr]

Thanks guys! The gun is a new reproduction (Turnbull). I will give 3031 a try. I'm curious, do you use hard cast bullets, jacket bullets, or something in the neighborhood of 20/1 Pb?

[Outpost75]

For hunting alloy I use 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals which performs well with either smokeless or black to up 1500 fps, no leading issues with SPG lube. Above 1500 fps wheelweights +2% tin or 50-50 linotype and pure lead with GC bullets to 1850 fps with 50-50 Alox-beeswax.

[waco]

This alloy was COWW with 2% tin. Air cooled

[williamwaco]

This alloy was COWW with 2% tin. Air cooled

That is an excellent Alloy.

For 1200 fps with cast bullets, I would be looking at faster powders. Like Unique, Herco, or 2400.

[rldarmstr]

Shot the gun yesterday for the first time. Loads were: 4759 1500fps
4198 1450fps
4895 1650fps

Bullet was Lee 405 grain FP @ 20/1

Also had a BP load of 55 grains of 2FF.

The BP load gave the best group. 4198 was second.

Had a ton of leading though. I mean more than I have ever seen with this few rounds through any gun. I'm going to try harder bullets to start. Then I will try a 405 GC bullet (both 20/1 and WW) as recommended to me by a friend. Might also slug the bore to see what that shows? Any suggestions to anything I wrote here are welcome.

[Wayne Smith]

Do a pound cast or chamber cast and cast your boolits to fit. It is not uncommon for 45-70 to be able to easily chamber a .460 -.462 boolit. That may be with a .4575 bore - it is your chamber that you need to measure.

We have not talked about size on this thread, but fit is king. If you get leading, unless it is limited to the muzzle of your rifle, small size is your most likely culprit.

[BAGTIC]

Do a pound cast or chamber cast and cast your boolits to fit. It is not uncommon for 45-70 to be able to easily chamber a .460 -.462 boolit. That may be with a .4575 bore - it is your chamber that you need to measure.

We have not talked about size on this thread, but fit is king. If you get leading, unless it is limited to the muzzle of your rifle, small size is your most likely culprit.

IMO that kind of 'leading' is not caused by friction. It is caused by the rifling acting like a rasp and shaving lead off the bullet. Fill the bore full and there won't be anyplace for the filings to accumulate. Imagine running a very slightly too small bolt or machine screw into a nut that is very slightly too large. When torque is applied the load can not be carried by the full depth of the thread and the part that does engage will be sheared off. If friction was responsible it would not fill the grooves (riflings) full.

[Butler Ford]

just to get enough key strokes for the message to be allowed:

Bigger (diameter) bullet!!!

BF

[sharps4590]

Until you slug the bore you're just guessing at the correct diameter. A chamber cast and measuring the throat never hurts either. Groove dia. + .001-.002 or sizing for the throat should eliminate your leading problem.

Powders, I've had good luck with all of those mentioned in various rifles chambered for the 45-70. The one I always try first is Re-7.

[18Bravo]

Butler Ford and OverMax pretty much nailed it. I was having the same problem with a Lee 457-405F mold. Not only was I getting significant leading, I was also getting terrible accuracy due to the fact that the boolit was keyholing at anything past 25 yards! After a lot of head scratching and obligatory swearing I found out my bore was .458! Switched to Lee’s 459-405-HB and the problem went away. With powder coating, I push this load at around 1312 fps using 28.5gr of H4198. Anything less than 1500 fps has left my bore clean and shiny. Would be interested in hearing how IMR 3031 works for you.

[rldarmstr]

It was a lube problem. At least 95% lube problem.

[smkummer]

You can get the lower velocities with unique in a 1886 and save some money on powder. I am loading 14.7 grains with the 385 lead bullet for about 1250 FPS in a modern trapdoor and shooting 200 yards all day. That same 385 grain bullet will hit 1350 for a safe loading in a 1886 with unique.

[waco]

Here are some targets shot with my Marlin 1895 45-70 using an Accurate 460-405-V plain base boolit over 42gr of IMR3031
These were shot at 50 yards from a rest. Boolits sized to .460" lubed with 2500+ and rolled in BLL.
Attachment 199213 5 shots in each group.
Attachment 199214
Attachment 199215
Attachment 199216