For thought and meditation

[rl69]

“A false witness will not go unpunished and he who pours out lies will perish.” Proverbs 19:1-9

Will the universe sustain a lie? Today the Church is being inundated with a philosophy called “situational ethics” which would have us believe that sometimes a lie can be right. I think that is a deadly and diabolical doctrine. A lie is never right – no matter what attempts we might make to justify it. “God is not a man, that he should lie,” says the Scripture in Numbers 23:19, and in 1 John 2:21 we read, “‘ no lie comes from the truth.” God cannot lie and He will never delegate to you the task of lying for Him. When we take dishonesties into our lives we take fire into our lives – here and hereafter: “‘ all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone” (Rev. 21:8, NKJV). “Situational ethics” proponents come up with all kinds of possible scenarios, such as: “What if someone came to your house to murder a member of your family and asked if that person was in. Would it not be right to lie in those circumstances?” Can you see the thrust of this question? It is the argument, “This is what we ought to do because it makes sense.” But once we view sin as an “ought,” it is magically turned into something that is “good.” The Bible does not teach that anyone in any situation ought to sin. 1 Corinthians 10:13 teaches that because God is faithful, we will never find ourselves in a situation where we must sin, but there will always be a way of escape. God never calls upon us to break one of His laws in order to keep another. Prayer: O Father, in a world that seems to be always looking for excuses and exceptions, help me to steer my life by the clear statements of Your revealed will. I dont want to measure up to exceptions; I want to conform to the rules – Your rules. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.

[square butte]

Thank you for the scripture this morning and the good word

[Wayne Smith]

... and Satan is the father of lies. This is sweeping and all inclusive statement. When I lie I am adopting Satan as my father, at least for that time. No wonder we need to confess.

[USMC87]

Amen for the truth and a great start of the day.

[Little Oak]

A big problem for people who lie is that they believe that everybody else is the same and miss out in some very fundamental ways such as trust.
Those of us who are truthful through Faith and conscience have a tendency to think the better of others and can be/are taken advantage of. But to retain our Faith and live with our conscience we must remain staunch in our truthfulness and trust in our Lord to help us through the day.

[Ickisrulz]

I have to disagree with the OP.

If telling someone something that is false will save the life of an innocent person it is not a sin. Just as killing a person in self defense or to protect an innocent victim is not murder (a sin). We should not as a rule lie or kill people, but sometimes it is necessary and the best thing to do.

Consider 2 Thessalonians 2:11 (God causes a delusion) or 1 Kings 22:22-23 (God sends a delegate to deceive). These refute the claims of the OP.

There is no such thing as a necessary evil. If it's evil it is not necessary. If it's necessary it is not evil.

[claude]

The bible teaches that God's will will be done, and He will use any means necessary to bring it about, consider Gen chapter 27 wherein there was covert activity used to fulfill prophecy. Do you suppose Rebekah and Jacob are slated for the dance in fire lake?

[Ickisrulz]

The bible teaches that God's will will be done, and He will use any means necessary to bring it about, consider Gen chapter 27 wherein there was covert activity used to fulfill prophecy. Do you suppose Rebekah and Jacob are slated for the dance in fire lake?

Rebekah and Jacob's deception is not a good example of when a falsehood is correct. What they did was absolutely wrong (as was Isaac's favoring Esau). Rebekah and Jacob's motivations were not noble, selfless or for anyone's benefit but their own. If it was God's original intention to select Jacob as the heir of the promises, he would have done it without human intervention.

I don't know about their final destination, but Rebekah probably never saw Jacob again after he fled from Esau. Jacob lived for 20+ years away from his family working for his deceitful uncle. Both paid a terrible price for their sin. Esau seems to have done well enough continuing to live near his father and mother.

[claude]

I suppose that would be a matter of opinion, do you put Tamar's actions to question as well? Do you deny that God uses (not may use, but does use) whom soever He chooses to accomplish His will?

For the faint of heart who may be reading this interaction, this is not a contentious argument between two brothers, we are much more on the same page than not.

[Ickisrulz]

I suppose that would be a matter of opinion, do you put Tamar's actions to question as well? Do you deny that God uses (not may use, but does use) whom soever He chooses to accomplish His will?

For the faint of heart who may be reading this interaction, this is not a contentious argument between two brothers, we are much more on the same page than not.

Just because the will of God is advanced by the sin of man does not mean he wants man to sin. I lies, killing and any other action done for purely selfish ambitions at the expense of others are in the category of sin. As I am sure you are aware, God judges actions by looking at motivations.

Tamar lived in a weird time and culture with strange norms and laws. She would have prevailed had a court heard her complaint. Judah said as much.

[claude]

Thank you.
One last thought, and my discussion is at an end, I have enjoyed our discourse.

Consider Samuel 16:7, and ask yourself, do I have the credentials to judge Jacob's and Rebekkah's actions?

Thank you again, and good day, it's been a pleasure.

[Ickisrulz]

Thank you.
One last thought, and my discussion is at an end, I have enjoyed our discourse.

Consider Samuel 16:7, and ask yourself, do I have the credentials to judge Jacob's and Rebekkah's actions?

Thank you again, and good day, it's been a pleasure.

The writers of Old Testament historical books usually do not offer moral proclamations. It is up to the reader to do so based on other portions of scripture and context. Doing this, I'd say Rebekah and Jacob were in the wrong for their deception. Judah and his son were in the wrong when it came to Tamar. Tamar was probably justified in taking matters into her own hands even though she was deceitful. She tried to play by the rules.

[Wayne Smith]

My problem (as a psychologist) with using the OT to justify (questionably) lies is that it, either consciously or unconsciously, pushes to justify my lies. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. God defines right and wrong, if He did it, it is right by definition. As far as human characters go the Bible is full of flawed people. I cannot think of one, for example, that can be held up as an example of a good father.

My lies are wrong and sinful - there is no justification. There is confession and forgiveness, however (1 Jn. 1:9).

[Ickisrulz]

My problem (as a psychologist) with using the OT to justify (questionably) lies is that it, either consciously or unconsciously, pushes to justify my lies. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. God defines right and wrong, if He did it, it is right by definition. As far as human characters go the Bible is full of flawed people. I cannot think of one, for example, that can be held up as an example of a good father.

My lies are wrong and sinful - there is no justification. There is confession and forgiveness, however (1 Jn. 1:9).

I agree. Many of the actions committed by the Old Testament saints were reprehensible and the narratives are certainly not intended to be prescriptive. They are examples of faith and proper response to the limited light they had at the time.

I think Job may have been a pretty good father.

I am sticking to my position that lies are not always sinful when they are used to protect the innocent. In fact, God rewarded the midwives for their lie (Ex 1:19) to the Egyptian Pharaoh. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to protect the innocent, but here we are.

There's also the tactic of deception routinely used when dealing with an enemy. This would be presenting a falsehood--a lie. Was it God's idea or Gideon's idea when the Midianites were tricked into thinking they were being attacked?

[Blackwater]

Wow! Great discussion. Doing something because we feel a necessity to do them, even though we know it's normally "wrong," has always been debated seriously, and I guess it always will be. The fly in the ointment, for many, is simply that many want to feel justified even when they know they're doing wrong, and trying to take that a step or twenty beyond what might be feasible, is self-deception. And unfortunately, self-deception is one of the most common characteristics of mankind. Always has been, it seems.

As to the confession and forgiveness, I have a sense that if our hearts were pure when we made a momentary decision to lie, and our intent was to make things "better," then the forgiveness comes much more quickly and completely. If, on the other hand, it was calculated and we thought we'd just seek "forgiveness" afterward, I think there may be forgiveness IF we're brought to our knees by later realization of what we've done, but there still may be a hefty price to pay for that particular lie, or whatever. God teaches us in whatever way we make it necessary for Him to use to teach us. Some just never learn, basically because they don't want to, and simply refuse to. I feel for folks like that. And I can't help but wonder if God doesn't "give up" on folks like these, at least unless and until they show some genuine remorse and repentance. If anyone here has it all figured out, you're a LOT smarter than I am! But I keep seeking. It never ends.