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Thread: .40/.44 Special

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    Seems strange that the last 38-40 I made I used a 10MM barrel blank because I could not find one for the 38-40. So your new cartridge could also be called a 10MM-40 or because it is shorter maybe a 10X25 which would go along with your 7.62X25. So many wildcats, so little time. I do enjoy helping you out on some of these projects.

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    John,

    How did the GM 10mm blank work out? Other GM gunsmith special blanks we have used on the "Infamous Bunny Gun" projects have been wonderful.

    My thought process to move the Ruger .44-40 cylinder you cleaned up for me over to my 7-1/2" .44 Magnum, which likes it even better and shoots "like a rifle." Use the 5-1/2" .44-40 Vaquero frame to use as the platform for this, rebarrelling to finish 5" and fitting two cylinders from Storey blanks when they arrive, one .40 S&W and the other .40/44 or 10x25R, whichever we want to call it. I will still have another blank or two for the 7.62x25 cylinder for the .30 Carbine Ruger we talked about and still want to try that, and maybe a .32 ACP too, just for laughs.

    Thought is to match Ruger barrel contour, exploiting the .95 diameter to machine a front sight ramp integral with muzzle to extent possible, machining it to accept interchangeable sight blades to permit adjust for zero, using whichever system to do that you prefer. Machine top strap to fit a driftable rear sight. Initial zero should be for 180-grain .40 S&W factory load at 50 feet or 25 yards. I will work around that basic xero for heavier bullet in 10x25R for 50-yard zero, which will save your fooling around with the wildcat.

    When you finish up current project I can certainly send you more work, if this sounds like a fun project you would like.
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  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    I only fired one round through the 38-40 and did not take it to the range. Have not heard anything back from the customer. I did not like the 38-40 with a 1 in 40 twist and I'm not sure how the 1 in 16" will do on a rifle. No problem machining a base on the barrel for different sights. Are you thinking quick release like Ruger uses on their double action revolvers. This new 10X25R sounds like fun.

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Doesn't need to be quick release, but easily changible, S&W or Bowen type with set screw would be fine, or you may have another idea. A 16" twist in the rifle would have interesting possibilities with a heavy bullet subsonic. Something around 250 grains with .405" length nose, 0.25" meplat, crimp groove 0.3" from base with ample lube groove similar to Accurate 41-265F with diameters reduced to .401"

    Attachment 198467
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  5. #25
    Boolit Master smkummer's Avatar
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    Your cartridge will kind of look like the 357/44 Bain and Davis. I believe problems with cartridge set back like the 22 Jet occurred. And I remember reading 30 years ago about a cartridge that loaded in a 44 chamber with a plastic ring around the neck of the cartridge and fired in a .357 diameter barrel. Good luck.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    With moderate loads which we plan on using I cannot see the setback being any more of a problem than with the .38-40 WCF.
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  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 357Mag View Post
    Outpost -

    Howdy, again !

    Too late to do any good.....

    It occurred to me that .30-40 Krag brass could fit the bill, as regards a rimmed parent case that had the correct major diameters.

    Please keep us posted on your progress !


    With regards,
    357Mag
    .30-40 brass is even rarer and more expensive than .41 Magnum brass these days.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master reed1911's Avatar
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    I agree that the project intentions will not incur any set-back issues. I've been working with various necked calibers in revolvers for a very long time, from the very small to rather large. They all have the same thing in common when it comes to set-back and that is top end loads. I'm sure there is a pressure threshold, that between looking through my notes and a few tests to correlate, would become apparent, but to be honest I just don't have the need or want. At one time the idea that a long shallow neck angle was the best for combating this issue, then we switched to a very sharp shoulder with minimal body taper thought, and then revolvers fell out of main stream fashion. In my experience, none of that mattered as I was always able to woke up a load that both shot well and extracted well, and did not lock the cylinder up.
    Ron Reed
    Oklahoma City, OK

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Bumping this old thread, my buddy Mike and I got our Ruger Blackhawk convertibles back from John Taylor with dual cylinders for .40 S&W and for the 10x25R.

    DougGuy made the loading dies by shortening .38-40 seater and sizer dies and then honing the neck portion of the size die to .420" diameter and the neck portion of the seater die to .425"

    Easiest way to make cases is simply to take Starline .44 Russian and they neck down nicely in one pass. The .44 Russian cases are about .960-.965" long and after necking down they come out .970-.975". Yes a wee bit short of the 1-inch we originally planned on but LOTS easier than trimming .44 Special brass by hand from 1.16" down to 1".

    Factory .40 S&W factory 180-grain FMJ ammo gets 1046 fps from the 5-inch revolver with 0.003" cylinder gap.
    Accurate 40-182H in .40 S&W with 5 grains of Bullseye gives 1079 fps. Accuracy is good.

    Now that I have 500 Starline .44 Russian cases necked down and expanded, the 10x25 wildcat will be tested next range trip with Accurate 40-220H and 5 grains of Bullseye.
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  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Here is a condensation of the article in the current issue of The Fouling Shot:

    Attachment 232300Attachment 232301Attachment 232304Attachment 232305Attachment 232306

    Our fantasy was a modern, RIMMED .40 cal. cartridge, which using either .40 S&W or 10mm jacketed or .38-40 cast bullets. It would serve the medium game “packing pistol” role, approximating .38-40 black powder rifle ballistics with smokeless, from a sturdy revolver, in a smaller, sturdy case, formed from common brass, avoiding the excess free airspace and fragile nature of .38-40 brass. A case full of black powder or Trail Boss would be adequate for Cowboy Action, plinking, or small game at about 700 fps with either round ball or bullet.

    The .44 Russian case has just the right case capacity, when necked down to .40 having a capacity of 20-21 grains of 3Fg, 4.0-4.5 grains of Trail Boss or 14 grs. of IMR4227 using the RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #18. From our custom 5-inch Ruger Blackhawks, smokeless performance with Bullseye powder exceeds .40 S&W factory ballistics. With “magnum” pistol powders it shows promise to produce a powerful hunting load approximating the 10mm Auto. We attained 1000 fps with Accurate 40-182H and 950 fps with 40-220H cast bullets with 5 grains of Bullseye. With 7.4 grains of Auto Comp we got 1140 fps with the 180-gr. and 1080 fps with the 220-grain cast bullets. Indeed an adequate “packing pistol...”

    Dave Manson made our reamer,...John Taylor...rebarrelled our Rugers using a Green Mountain “gunsmith special” 10mm barrel with 16” twist, rechambering one cylinder for each gun to .40 S&W, and the other to 10x25mm. .

    Source brass to make the 10x25mm is ...Starline .44 Russian, which we neck down and use as-is, resulting in a 0.970-0.975” case. The shoulder angle is 6 degrees, 48 minutes Basic, the same as the .38-40 Winchester. Case body diameter is .454" at the shoulder, the same as the .38-40 and .457" at the base, and the same as the .44 Special.

    Doug Phillips aka “DougGuy” in North Carolina made our loading dies by cutting down and honing out .38-40 Lee dies on his Sunnen hone... Doug’s firm price to modify your set of LEE .38-40 dies to 10x25mmR is $150. You supply Lee .38-40 dies, Doug does the mod, and returns your dies insured in small flat rate box. A shortened Lee Quik-Trim case holder, to cut .44 Specials, costs a bit extra. Once you have fire-formed brass, it is possible to neck-size only by using a 0.525” spacer with your .40 S&W Auto dies.

    ...Starline .44 Russian brass comes 0.0960-0.965" long. After necking down to .40 cal. they will be 0.970-0.975"...

    We elected NOT to get an inside neck reaming die made to thin our case necks, but to increase the chamber neck diameter to .429" instead. This saved a great deal of money in development costs and case making effort. It also results in a more sturdy case which can withstand rough handling, unlike paper-thin .38-40s!. We use our necked down Starline brass as-is...

    Based on our feedback Dave Manson revised the chamber neck diameter on the reamer print. Anyone ordering this reamer in the future should specify .40/.44 Special Short Harris Rev1-6/18...with... .429” neck diameter, having a .402” cylindrical ball seat 0.10” long with 6 degrees, Basic forcing cone. This permits using the Accurate 40-220H bullet as-cast and unsized in a rifle chamber...

    In the 10x25mm I first tested loads in Starline .44 Russian brass with 180 Hornady FMJ, Accurate 40-182H and 40-220H, again, all with 5 grains of Bullseye:

    The 180-grain Hornady FMJ with 5 grains of Bullseye give 932 fps with a standard deviation of 15 fps over a six-shot string.

    Accurate 40-182H with the same 5 grains of Bullseye in the 10x25 gave 1009 fps, an Sd of 10 fps and shot to the sights at 25 yards, just like it did in the .40 S&W.

    Accurate 40-220H gave 949 fps with a standard deviation of 10 fps and grouped at the top edge of the black on a B15 25-yard timed and rapid-fire pistol target. Indeed, about right for a 100-yard zero. Both groups very slightly left, maybe one click to center them up.

    Next step was to test loads metered with the same RCBS Little Dandy #9 rotor which meters 5 grains of Bullseye, but this time metering 7.4 grains of AutoComp:

    40-182H gave 1138 with a 10 round Sd of 14 fps
    40-220H gave 1083 fps with a 10-round Sd of 11 and round groups.

    The RCBS Little Dandy #18 rotor which fills the case to the neck-shoulder junction, without compression, was used to meter 14 grains of IMR4227. Velocity was 1033 fps with an Sd of 16 with the 40-182H bullet and 1008 with an Sd of 12 with 40-220H, with significant unburned powder and loose groups. It was obvious that IMR4227 was too slow.

    AutoComp or Bullseye are better suited. Next time I'm going to try 452AA because I have ten pounds of it.

    A dip measure made from a .357 Magnum case measures about 20-21 grains of Goex 3Fg or 4.2-4.5 grains of Trail Boss, filling the case “gently to the shoulder without compression.”

    The maximum black powder charge is 24 grains using a drop tube or compression die. Sam’s recommended 4.5 grains of Trail Boss is a “full charge” load, with 4.8 grains being the “absolute full stop not to be exceeded,” because Trail Boss should NOT be compressed!

    I then tried lighter charges with Bullseye and Accurate 40-220H and 40-224H, to find a low recoil load of traditional black powder velocity level, approximating the .41 Long Colt. A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye in the 10x25 case, with 40-220H gave 760 fps with a standard deviation of only 7 fps and an extreme spread of 29 fps over a 12-shot string. Substituting the 40-224H ogival wadcutter results were almost identical with 748 fps, an Sd of 7 and a 12-round ES of 23 fps., producing satisfying 2-1/2” groups at 25 yds.

    Next iteration is to try this cartridge in a rifle. I received back from John Taylor one of my pre-war small frame H&R .410 receivers with its new 10x25Rmm barrel. John fitted, and turned the 22" Green Mountain 10mm blank, fabricated and installed the underlug, fitted the extractor, bushed the firing pin, chambered the barrel, machined muzzle for M14 front sight, then drill and tapped the barrel for XS ghost ring peep and a Weaver base, on which I currently have an old Weaver El Paso K4 and blued the barrel.

    Attachment 232302Attachment 232303

    Gun is 38" overall and weighs 5 lbs., 1 oz. without scope and 5 lbs. 15 ozs. with scope. Plan is to zero both irons and scope at 100 yards, then chronograph some of the loads leftover from testing the converted Blackhawk.

    I expect that 5 grains of Bullseye will be close to .38-40 black powder rifle ballistics. I expect also that the mild loads with 3.5 grains of Bullseye which are about 800 fps in the 5" revolver, will have a mild report, remain subsonic in the rifle, so being relatively quiet, but still hard hitting, fully equal to a .40 S&W or .38-40 revolver.

    Recently received from Tom at Accurate 40-252H which provides a heavier 10mm bullet than any currently available. Overall cartridge length is 1.50" to exploit the Ruger cylinder length. A heavier bullet is suited for long range revolver use without having to hold over. In the rifle a mild charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye is subsonic and of low noise level, even without a can. A "full charge" uses a compressed case full of IMR4227, about 16-18 grains, which provides is a stunted, smokeless version of .40/50 Sharps, about 1250 fps from a 22-inch barrel.

    Attachment 232638

    Should be just the ticket for bunnies, bucks and varmints. Stay tuned!
    Last edited by Outpost75; 12-24-2018 at 12:18 AM.
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  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Since the 'original Jeff Cooper' 10 was a shortened 30 Rem, you could just cut-off 30-30's and neck ream for straight-wall base case, any length under 2" would work. Oh you already did all the that work, Oh well.

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MostlyLeverGuns View Post
    Since the 'original Jeff Cooper' 10 was a shortened 30 Rem, you could just cut-off 30-30's and neck ream for straight-wall base case, any length under 2" would work. Oh you already did all the that work, Oh well.
    With Starline .44 Russian being readily available, shortening and honing .38-40 dies was cheap and simple. Then necking that down and using .44 Russian without having to trim or ream was the natural solution. Powder capacity is a bit greater than the 10mm Auto. Quite enough!

    Before doing this we looked at using other parent cases as feedstock, but the cost of having loading dies, plus neck reaming die, etc. done custom made it a non-starter. This conversion is INEXPENSIVE, simple and it works.

    John Taylor now owns the tooling and can do either rifle or revolver work with this caliber and is equipped to make the dies also. No brainer.

    But if anybody wants to reinvent the wheel and do it your way, it's your money. The groundwork here is done. The guns are in hand, loads already developed.

    The concept is proven.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 12-19-2018 at 12:55 PM.
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  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Good morning
    Well done ! I do enjoy reading these adventures into the "why not" realm of creativity.
    "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
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  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy
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    Love it! Nice job and good work. Looks like an easy solution for a fun shooter when one needs a different angle.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check