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Thread: Creation vs. Creationism

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
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    There are some 50-60 other supernatural miracles referenced in the OT. They must become very complex to explain away then?

    It becomes very difficult to believe any of these supernatural occurrence when I start discounting some of them. After all Al-Bburaq the flying horse took Muhammad to heaven to speak width god, but I believe that's a story.

    I take the scriptures to be true, no matter how difficult to explain, because of the witnesses, and I believe Moses was inspired and made a witness to the creation, just as Jesus knew and the NT writers who wrote of him, the creator.

  2. #82
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    There are some 50-60 other supernatural miracles referenced in the OT. They must become very complex to explain away then?

    It becomes very difficult to believe any of these supernatural occurrence when I start discounting some of them. After all Al-Bburaq the flying horse took Muhammad to heaven to speak width god, but I believe that's a story.

    I take the scriptures to be true, no matter how difficult to explain, because of the witnesses, and I believe Moses was inspired and made a witness to the creation, just as Jesus knew and the NT writers who wrote of him, the creator.
    I discount nothing and I try and understand everything. Sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong. If I am wrong or right, it is because of my thinking and not that of someone else. I won't allow the assertions, opinions, rules, regulations or perceptions of other determine the actions and course of my life. I will answer to God for what I did and why I did it. I won't stand before God and say, "Yes, I was wrong, but it was because what somebody else told me was wrong.".
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  3. #83
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    There are some 50-60 other supernatural miracles referenced in the OT. They must become very complex to explain away then?

    It becomes very difficult to believe any of these supernatural occurrence when I start discounting some of them. After all Al-Bburaq the flying horse took Muhammad to heaven to speak width god, but I believe that's a story.

    I take the scriptures to be true, no matter how difficult to explain, because of the witnesses, and I believe Moses was inspired and made a witness to the creation, just as Jesus knew and the NT writers who wrote of him, the creator.
    I am in your camp when it comes to believing the entire Bible is the word of God when properly interpreted. This means I believe the love, the miracles, the judgements, etc. When I find something that makes me wonder or question God's character or truthfulness, I know something must be missing from the picture and I am in error not the scripture.

    The Church is made up of a bunch of different types of believers with differing views on how scripture should be approached. There seems to be a wide allowable margin of error. I know that I must be wrong in some of the ways I understand things--I just don't know where (nor can I see how!). Everyone else is in the same position.

    I believe what I do because of the time I took to study and apply logic. I alone am responsible for this just like everyone else.

  4. #84
    Boolit Master
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    Matthew 12:36, Romans 14:12 make it so clear that we will give account. That causes me to think even more. This will be my last post to this thread. Not from anything but love. Love to everyone who thinks on these things, I hope to have you all for a neighbor in heaven some day! I just think God for revealing his love to and for us. Pray for me.
    Hey, I'm cooking up a mess of squash out of the garden rite now, come to supper if you can make it,

  5. #85
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    When it comes to understanding and explaining the Bible, I have a strong sense that we all "see through the glass darkly," but even so, Christ never said we had to be perfect in our understanding, just persistent in our efforts, and if we ARE persistent, and diligent and sincere, He also told us that "Seek and ye shall find." It's taken me a lot of years to "solve" some of the questions I've had. First, I had to drop or "unlearn" some of the assumptions I'd been operating on, and wonder of wonders, the answers just seemed to come to me as though out of thin air! I can't really explain it, or even describe the process really, but .... that's what real Faith is for I guess?

    I have always been awed and inspired by my Lord, but understanding has come with much difficulty for me - probably because I've been so willful at times, and too steeped in bad theology? At any rate, I'm just thankful for the understandings our Lord has given me, and hope to glean even more from Him in due time, as He prepares me to receive them. Truly, our Lord is one loving and wondrous God, and worthy of our worship and respect and reverence for Him!

  6. #86
    Boolit Bub
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    Being on 'personal' terms with Almighty God, I have no doubt He created the Universe (referred to in the KJV and other English language texts of the era as 'the world') from nothing. When Almighty God created the Universe, part of His creation was all the 'laws' of the Universe. Not just moral laws like no monkeying with another monkey's monkey, but gravity, expansion, the limitation of "C", entropy and the poor thinking of drawing to an inside straight.

    With that in mind, all the scientific information relating to the age of the Universe should be considered, investigated, researched and so forth. The concept of 'science is evil' is a demonic lie. So is the concept of 'stupid is holy'.

    The Genesis account says (and is quoted in other places) God created by speaking; usually phrased as "God spoke ... (all that stuff)..." That is unquestionably true. However, the word used for 'speak' or 'spoke' means more than just flapping one's lips. It can (and probably does in this case) mean 'authority' or 'will' (in the sense of 'intent'). Much the same as some king speaking, and it was done. One also has to consider prior to the creation of the Universe, there was no air. Sounds do not travel in a vacuum. So the idea of God talking (like humans) is a bit strained. Also, to believe this wording 'literally' - which cannot be done unless one understands the actual meaning of the word - then the claimant presumes God speaks in exactly the same cadence as humans in all circumstances.

    Consider also the two mentions of the sun 'stopping' in the sky. One instance is in Joshua 10 where Joshua fights and defeats the Amorites. Instance two is in 2 Kings 20 and Isaiah 38. King Hezekiah was dying and prayed to be healed. He was healed (lived another fifteen years) and God gave Hezekiah a 'sign' by causing a shadow cast by the sun to reverse motion - which means the sun had to reverse motion.

    For centuries, Christians understood this to be proof the sun orbits the Earth, per the Ptolemaic 'theory'. Some Christians still taught this long past the time of Galileo and Copernicus until the middle to late 19th Century. Due to so much exploration and astronomical observation, even Christians (mostly) now understand the heliocentric nature of the solar system. Further the passages in Joshua, Kings and Isaiah are understood as 'eye witness' reporting and NOT confirmation of any other theory.

    The same is happening with the YEC theory of Creationism.

    The God I serve and know is the ultimate Creator of all things. He conceived, designed, engineered, built and maintains the Universe - at His pleasure and pace, not ours. However, scientific enquiry is a valid exploration of God's Universe and nature as well. Which is not always understood, but still a valid claim.
    Go peacefully; teach the ignorant, comfort the distressed. Always be kind. Wear clean underwear and carry a gun.

  7. #87
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    Some may find this relevant, or not, but I believe the Christian account of the Beginning is the ONLY one in all of our history that precisely follows, in exact order as described, the processes that science has now come to believe to be the way the universe was created. No other book that I know of has even attempted to describe it, other than some who've told stories of monstrous supernatural beings making the world and mankind, kind'a like kids playing with play dough, but never has there been another accurate account, as verified by very well substantiated scientific theory and belief, as the account in Genesis. This, I think, lends credence to the concept that God tells us the simple Truth, always, and that's a sign I take as an expression of His love for us. HOW He did it all is NOT described in the Bible, other than that God spoke the words and things happened as he directed. Science is more involved in the HOW things occurred and WHY they occurred that way. It in NO way discounts the existence of God, for if God chose to use very logical and perceptible (albeit after many centuries of investigation) methods in the Creation, then He, it seems to me, is just following His basic nature in keeping things in logical order and in a progressive manner. The creation of time itself, which didn't really exist prior to the Big Bang, was the real starting point for everything that ensued.

    Science now believes that had the temperature of the rush of matter at the Big Bang had been 1 degree Farenheit higher or lower, the universe would be vastly different than it is now! The absolute precision, down to infinitesimal fractions of a milisecond, in time, and in temperature, and every other trait of the Creation, seems to cry out that it did NOT and COULD not have come from mere happenstance or "accident." It HAD to be directed and controlled by some outside force, just like we'd cook an egg over easy in the frying pan. All of this, in my mind, makes God even more majestic, awe inspiring and wondrous.

    Again, no other story of creation has EVER come so thoroughly close to explaining Creation as has the Genesis account. I think Sherlock Holmes would call that a "clue." A God who can do all that ..... well, He is truly a mighty God, an all-powerful God, and a wondrous and loving God indeed!

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