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Thread: Creation vs. Creationism

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
    Omega's Avatar
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    So where does this hypothesis fit in?:
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...er-simulation/
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  2. #42
    Boolit Master NoAngel's Avatar
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    It doesn't.
    I come up with some pretty out there stuff but that one has me down by five laps.
    When dealing with islam one should always ask themselves: "What would Leonidas do?"

  3. #43
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    Thank you Wayne and Char-Gar for your excellent posts. Now: if they wrote hymns like this anymore there wouldn't be so much trifling dissent; from "Crown Him with many crowns"
    Crown Him the Lord of years, the Potentate of time; Creator of the rolling spheres, ineffably sublime! All hail, Redeemer hail! For Thou hast died for me, Thy praise shall never, never fail for all eternity." Listen if you like. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YuMh_ept-Js
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  4. #44
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    Thank you Wayne and Char-Gar for your excellent posts. Now: if they wrote hymns like this anymore there wouldn't be so much trifling dissent; from "Crown Him with many crowns"
    Crown Him the Lord of years, the Potentate of time; Creator of the rolling spheres, ineffably sublime! All hail, Redeemer hail! For Thou hast died for me, Thy praise shall never, never fail for all eternity." Listen if you like. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YuMh_ept-Js
    That is a wonderful hymn that I have sung in church many times. I guess my favorite is "And Can It Be" by Charles Wesley...

    And can it be, that I should gain
    an interest in my Saviors blood.
    Died he for me, who cause his pain?
    For me to who him to death pursued?
    Amazing love, how can it be
    That thou my God should die for me?

    All this picking around about this or that point. Quarreling about nothing, yet forgetting about the central part of the gospel. The amazing love of God who died for us while we were yet sinners.

    Amazing grace how sweet the sound,
    that saved a wretch like me.
    I once was lost, but now am found.
    Was blind but now I see.

    The anger, wrath and punishment of God, never broke a person's heart and brought him/her to the foot of the cross. The loving grace of God has brought billions to faith in a loving God.

    Jesus told parables about what God is like. He told of the woman that had ten coins but lost one. She swept her house until she found the lost coin.

    Jesus told of the Shepard who had 100 sheep but lost the one. He searched high and low until he found the one lost sheep.

    That is what God is like? He is not willing for any of us to be lost. He seeks us until we are found. He does not seek up to crush us under his brass heel because we went out own way. His is a loving, searching God, that loves us beyond measure, even to the death of his own Son.

    Those who focus on the OT God of wrath, punishment and fire miss the entire point of the NT. The ancient Jews got it wrong!!!!! There is not a slice of daylight between the Ancient Jews concept of Jehovah and the ancient Muslims concept of Allah. The Muslims are stuck in the far distance past, because they don't have a savior. They don't have a NT.

    Others can pizz their pants in fear of a wrathful and punishing god if they wish, but I want none of that. I was found. I am loved. I am forgiven. I live in grace. I am a heaven bound sinner saved by the grace of God in Jesus Christ. "Perfect love casts out all fear.".
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 06-22-2017 at 11:05 PM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Those who focus on the OT God of wrath, punishment and fire miss the entire point of the NT. The ancient Jews got it wrong!!!!! There is not a slice of daylight between the Ancient Jews concept of Jehovah and the ancient Muslims concept of Allah.
    The ancient Jews got what wrong? Are you suggesting the Old Testament writings are not inspired?

  6. #46
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    The ancient Jews got what wrong? Are you suggesting the Old Testament writings are not inspired?
    There are two major understandings of OT and NT revelation.

    1. The Flat Book understanding, the Bible is flat and every passage in both testaments carries the same weight and have the same value to the Christian believer.

    2 Progressive revelation, where God's statement to mankind continued as mankind ability to understand increased. God said it in the early OT. God said it better in the later OT. God said it best in Jesus Christ.

    There are two major understanding of how God inspired the OT and NT.

    1. Verbal dictation theory of inspiration. i.e. God dictated scripture to the various writers, bypassing their personalities, culture and history. They writers were just mindless scribes.

    2. The Plenary (full) theory of inspiration. i.e. God inspired the entire/full person and that person brought with him his culture, history, personality and understanding.

    Summary;

    The various Fundamentalist sects, groups and churches hold to a Flat Book/Verbal Dictation understanding of scripture.

    The various Evangelical groups and churches hold to a Progressive revelation/Plenary inspiration understanding of scripture.

    Everybody get to choose what they believe about scripture and why. Neither choice means one is a Christian and the other is not. Being a Christian is a matter of faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord, not one's understanding of scripture.

    Caveat: Some Christian get very close, if they do not cross the line to "Bibliolatry , i.e. the worship of the Bible. The Muslims believe that the Koran is in some ways the incarnation of God. To their way of thinking disrespect for the Koran is blasphemy.

    I have not even touched in the various "liberal" understanding of revelation and inspiration of scripture and there are several of those. I have just included those which fall under the orthodox tent. I am in the orthodox tent. I do believe the OT was inspired, but probably not as you understand it.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    There are two major understandings of OT and NT revelation.

    1. The Flat Book understanding, the Bible is flat and every passage in both testaments carries the same weight and have the same value to the Christian believer.

    2 Progressive revelation, where God's statement to mankind continued as mankind ability to understand increased. God said it in the early OT. God said it better in the later OT. God said it best in Jesus Christ.

    There are two major understanding of how God inspired the OT and NT.

    1. Verbal dictation theory of inspiration. i.e. God dictated scripture to the various writers, bypassing their personalities, culture and history. They writers were just mindless scribes.

    2. The Plenary (full) theory of inspiration. i.e. God inspired the entire/full person and that person brought with him his culture, history, personality and understanding.

    Summary;

    The various Fundamentalist sects, groups and churches hold to a Flat Book/Verbal Dictation understanding of scripture.

    The various Evangelical groups and churches hold to a Progressive revelation/Plenary inspiration understanding of scripture.

    Everybody get to choose what they believe about scripture and why. Neither choice means one is a Christian and the other is not. Being a Christian is a matter of faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord, not one's understanding of scripture.

    Caveat: Some Christian get very close, if they do not cross the line to "Bibliolatry , i.e. the worship of the Bible. The Muslims believe that the Koran is in some ways the incarnation of God. To their way of thinking disrespect for the Koran is blasphemy.

    I have not even touched in the various "liberal" understanding of revelation and inspiration of scripture and there are several of those. I have just included those which fall under the orthodox tent. I am in the orthodox tent. I do believe the OT was inspired, but probably not as you understand it.
    I still don't understand where you are coming from. It looks like you are dismissing all the acts of God's judgement as you do not see them as compatible with Jesus' message of love. But what do you do with Jesus' warnings of judgement, Paul's understanding of destruction of the wicked? What do you do with Jude's Epistle that not only acknowledges the historicity of God's acts of judgement, but warns of judgement on ungodly people who are corrupting the church?

    I believe that the Bible shows a progressive revelation of God. I understand that God directed the writing of the Bible using the personality of the authors to arrive at a 100% inspired product. That being said, I don't see any change in God's character from one Testament to the other. The Old Testament expresses God's tremendous love as well as necessary acts of judgement to remove wicked influences, punish the wicked or bring about a change in behavior. The New Testament clearly states God's love, but also warns of judgement on the wicked.

    Do you believe there will be universal reconciliation?

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    2 Timothy 2:9-12

    Does this teach there will be plenty of reasons not to believe and be lost? So, either is all true, or all just a tall tail told to keep people in line! It really is this simple!

  9. #49
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    I still don't understand where you are coming from. It looks like y
    Do you believe there will be universal reconciliation?
    1. Nope, I am not a universalist. I believe in both heaven and hell. I don't believe God punishes people by sending them to hell. I believe that people punish themselves by choosing to live outside and away from the presence of God. Death only makes that life choice permanent. God offers us love and forgiveness in Jesus. Some people say yes and some people say no. The choice is their's. So, yes I believe in free will. There are eternal consequences, good and bad, for our exercise of free will.

    2. I do not believe the nature of God has ever changed. I do believe that man's understanding of the nature of God has changed for the better. In Jesus, we see the clearest picture of God. It is not a perfect picture because our understanding is limited by our humanness. "Now we see through a glass darkly. Then we shall see face to face".

    Bottom Line: You don't need to know where I am coming from. You need to know where God is coming from. I am just trying to give you a little information that might help point you toward your own understanding.

    The last thing I want is one of these petty, stupid and often hostile bickering fights over theological jots and tiddles that infest this board. Challenges and counter challenges have no place in Christian dialogue.
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 06-23-2017 at 12:04 PM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    2 Timothy 2:9-12

    Does this teach there will be plenty of reasons not to believe and be lost? So, either is all true, or all just a tall tail told to keep people in line! It really is this simple!
    Many people can't live with ambiguity and unanswered questions. They must have all matters of faith reduced to their understanding. They need all things in boxes and pigeon holes. They need and want rules and codes. There are plenty of churches and "teachers" who are more than willing to supply what they want. They furnish people with a house of cards that requires all pieces to stand or all pieces will fall.

    The Christian faith is full of unanswered questions, ambiguities, unresolved issues. This is because our faith is a living journey with a living God and Saviour. In 1972 a newly minted Christian came to me as asked is could continue drinking beer. I told him he was asking the wrong person. He needed to take that up with Jesus. A month later, he told me after much prayer and seeking the will of Christ, he determined not to drink beer any more. It would have been easy for me to give him a rule, but I wanted him to have a relationship and not a rule book.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    For those who have an interest in ancient Hebraic thinking as shown in their writings, let me offer you this;

    Ancient Hebrews and some modern Hebrews think and express things in terms of "first cause". It would work something like this; I go to the top of a tall building and jump off and am killed by the impact with the ground. The ancient Hebrew would say that God killed me. We would say that he killed himself. Why the difference in perspective. It is because God gave me free will and God created gravity, therefore it is God that killed me. In the chain of events and circumstances that caused my death, God was the first cause.

    Most misunderstanding about the OT come from a lack of understanding of ancient Hebrew thinking and writing. If a person understands ancient Hebrew thinking, the message of the OT will come through loud and clear. It is God's revelation, wrapped up in an ancient Hebrew mind.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  12. #52
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    I do believe we are all in different places in our understanding at different times in our journey. I see no reason to throw stumbling blocks in front of others, and see the wisdom of letting others come to there own understanding. One problem is we study books about the book, and not THE book.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Bottom Line: You don't need to know where I am coming from.
    No, I don't need to know where you are coming from. I typically enjoy your posts and recognize the wisdom you share. So it is nice to know how you approach the Bible even though I don't share your views on interpretation.

  14. #54
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    I live not too far from the new Ark Encounter theme park. For $40 (plus $10 for parking) you can visit a monument to Biblical literalism. They spent $100 million to build a 500 foot long wooden ship...on land...to convince people that the story of Noah's Ark is literally true.

    I think a lot of people miss the true point of Christianity.
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  15. #55
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkins45 View Post
    I live not too far from the new Ark Encounter theme park. For $40 (plus $10 for parking) you can visit a monument to Biblical literalism. They spent $100 million to build a 500 foot long wooden ship...on land...to convince people that the story of Noah's Ark is literally true.

    I think a lot of people miss the true point of Christianity.
    Nope. They spent $100 million to build a 500 foot long wooden ship...on land...so people would pay money to see it. Throw in the rest of the stuff there for people to spend money on and there you have it. The folks who WANT to believe in Biblical literalism are their marks. This is called in some quarters sheering the sheep.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Nope. They spent $100 million to build a 500 foot long wooden ship...on land...so people would pay money to see it. Throw in the rest of the stuff there for people to spend money on and there you have it. The folks who WANT to believe in Biblical literalism are their marks. This is called in some quarters sheering the sheep.
    Yeah. Good point.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoAngel View Post
    I have to agree. Based on what I see when I read Jehova and Jesus are polar opposites with respect to attitude. God cleansed with fire and water and took no lip service from men.
    Jesus took a totally opposite approach. I'm somewhat awed at his ability to do so. He could have easily unleashed the power he wielded and laid waste to everything. Can't say I would have, the first time I seen that cat of nine tails there would have a smoking crater of ash and slag.
    FWIW, Angel, it appears to me that what you learned when young, and what you've found since then, has not been enough to inspire you to truly understand just who and what God and Christ really are. That's not your fault, really, for nothing is more common than misunderstandings about God and Christ and about the things they've given us to learn and live by. I'd really have to suggest that you do some good reading of some books written by authors who DO "get it," and have the ability to put their thoughts and insights into words that most others can understand. A good place to start is with C. S. Lewis. Amazon or your favorite bookseller will have a volume of his compiled works, and I think it would bring you to a much closer understanding of just who and what God and Christ truly are, and how they work, and their true actions in this world. Much is attributed to God that is really the handiwork of man himself.

    You have something of a foundation to build on. It just needs some strengthening and some building upon it, to get to where you can see and appreciate the wonders and love that God and Christ both really want us all to know. But any search for wisdom and understanding MUST be done personally. Otherwise, all that's left is just adopting views of others, and the most often published views today are those of agnostics and doubters, who only ask questions, and never really provide answers. You need the real answers. So, it naturally follows that the best and most likely place to find them is in a widely acclaimed author that most all Christians will give a thumbs up to, and C. S. Lewis is one of the best at that.

    Lewis, BTW, was an atheist who was wounded seriously in WWI, and set out to prove scholastically that God COULD not exist, and that in particular, Christianity was a bunch of hooey. Instead, what he found, was Faith, and from the time he found it, it was sorely challenged, and yet, he retained it through it all - even when his beloved wife got cancer, and died a slow and suffering death. His account of that time, as he watched her slowly lose her grip on this life, is as poignant and powerful an example of what true faith is truly like, as I know of anywhere.

    It can literally sustain us through the most awful times we'll ever know, and the most awful trials man can face. Look at what happened to the Apostles. Nearly all of them died horrible deaths, and yet, they retained their faith in full despite all tortures and threats and pain. What could possibly see a man, or a group of men, or millions of people, through such awful things, but true Faith? Faith is the most powerful asset we can have in this world, if we'll just accept it, and use it, and feed it regularly. Those who mock and taunt, simply have no faith. I feel for them. If they would only allow themselves to know! Each person's choice is simply, their individual choice.

    And no choice we can ever make is more crucial and determining than our choice to accept Christ, or to not accept Him. His hand is always outstretched to each one of us. It's WE who must decide whether to accept it or not. But within that decision is a whole world of difference that will determine our lives both here, and in the hereafter. Would that all could or would simply accept His outstretched hand, but we each must make some sort of effort on our own part, with which to take His hand. And then, we have to decide whether to "study to show thyself approved," but really, that's not nearly as difficult nor does it take nearly as long as those who constantly make excuses for not doing that seem to make it out to be.

    And the funny part is, it's really enjoyable if you find a worthy author to read! If I personally had to recommend two authors, it'd be Lewis and G. K. Chesterton. Chesterton writes in the English that was common about 100 years ago, and his sentences are often long because he includes so many qualifiers and narrowing phrases as he speaks, so he's a little harder for most "moderns" to read, but more than worth it. He really, really penned some real zingers, and he did it readily. He's said to be the most often quoted author of the 20th Century!

    And if you want to find someone who questioned every little jot and tittle of Christianity, Chesterton is your man, and more particularly so because he also provides the answers to those questions! But I'd still start with Lewis, and then go to Chesterton, who BTW is very amusing to read, despite his use of the older English manner of writing and speaking. It's not Chaucer, but it's different from our modern American English, but once you get used to it, it's really quite charming, and really produces statements that are much more lucid than had they been written in modern English.

    Give it a try. I believe I can guarantee you that you will NOT be sorry, and believe it or not, once you begin, you'll likely want to get more of their books, and before you know it, you'll know more answers than you can even think of to ask right now. I know that's a brave statement to make, but .... answers - REAL answers - get kind'a addicting, and when you find a real gold mine of them, it's hard to stop digging in it. And it's a LOT more enjoyable than digging in a REAL gold mine, too! Most folks, on finding an author that "speaks" to them, are surprised at how much they love and become addicted to reading them. But life's full of ironies, and this is really a minor one. Good luck, if you simply give it a try.

  18. #58
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    The hardest and most dangerous part of theology comes when we concentrate so much on the "little points" that we forget the larger, broader and, I think, more important issues of that wonderful passage, "God is Love." Keeping that in mind kind'a explains most of the reasons we squabble over the fine points sometimes.

    I've often found it extremely ironic that the more closely to arguers agree on the big principles, the more emotionally they'll argue the smaller issues. I'm here to learn and grow, so I listen to everyone, and take what I can make use of in my own life. I'm seeking edification, and so, I don't look down on anyone who disagrees with me, though I'll argue my perspective if for no other reason than to see if it'll hold water when challenged. This I do to at least try to understand more and more deeply than I do now. I try not to let my ego inhibit my opportunities to increase my understanding.

    And I also try hard, sometimes more successfully than at other times, not to let semantics get in the way of my understanding of another's point. That's pretty hard to achieve sometimes, and most especially when discussing the finer points of theology. We only have so many words in our vocabularies with which to try to make ourselves understood, and being understood is the turning point of any good, and beneficial arguing. And many seem to get off into arguing because of ego than truly trying to seek edification. It's just what we humans do, but .... if arguing effectively was easy, we'd see a lot more of it these days, wouldn't we? But it's always worth it if we'll just keep our egos contained, and just argue the points we want to contribute. Understanding others is always a great challenge, but we CAN be up to it if we really put ourselves to the task.

    And when it comes to arguing theological points, it's really quite difficult to state precisely what we're trying to say, without leaving openings for our words to be misunderstood. Sometimes I think it's amazing that we communicate with each other as effectively as we do! But a good, spirited discussion and even argument CAN be quite edifying, if we simply let it be. Thank God for a good, substantial argument! It's how we truly learn from one another, usually!

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    The ancient Jews got what wrong? Are you suggesting the Old Testament writings are not inspired?
    It was the theology that came out of the Synagogue - the theology post exile that in Jesus' time was exemplied by the Pharasees - that morphed into magic and science fiction by the second and third century CE - that got it wrong. Most of us are completely ignorant of this because it is out of our cultural line. We therefore do not know what Jesus was arguing against in his statments against the Pharasees - whitewashed tombs - nor do we truly understand that the religious leaders of the day clearly and specifically understood that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself - and thus, to their minds, blaspheming.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Smith View Post
    It was the theology that came out of the Synagogue - the theology post exile that in Jesus' time was exemplied by the Pharasees - that morphed into magic and science fiction by the second and third century CE - that got it wrong. Most of us are completely ignorant of this because it is out of our cultural line. We therefore do not know what Jesus was arguing against in his statments against the Pharasees - whitewashed tombs - nor do we truly understand that the religious leaders of the day clearly and specifically understood that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself - and thus, to their minds, blaspheming.

    See post #46 for Char-gar's explanation of his statement.

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