Need help with Range lead and casting

[Handloader109]

I have used range scrap and WW for my Glock g17, Walthers and my 1911s all in 9mm with no real issue. Now the WWs might harden up more, but it's mainly range scrap. I was sizing down to .356, lately moved up to .358 to eliminate some keyholeing. But no leading. I'd spend a bit on some linotype and drop a pound in your mix just to get it a bit harder. Also, I've moved to almost 100% powdercoating. That eliminates any issues with leading. At least in my opinion.

[Walks]

An after market barrel is the way to go. I have one for each of my GLOCKS: 9mm, .40 & .45acp. I get better accuracy & don't have to worry about the "Infamous GLOCK SMILE". The after market barrels are more accurate, have tighter chamber's & lands&grooves more conducive to cast bullets. My GLOCK 19 factory barrel will chamber an UNSIZED CASE with a .358 dia. 158gr RN bullet handseated in it. My WOLF barrel measures .356 across the grooves. It won't chamber a .357 dia. bullet seated & crimped in a sized case.
I also prefer LINOTYPE for all auto-loading handgun bullets. Softer bullets can & due jam during the feeding cycle.

[TonyN]

Larry all the lead is from Jacket bullets and no that song allow cast bullets in the indoor range

[Larry Gibson]

Larry all the lead is from Jacket bullets and no that song allow cast bullets in the indoor range

Great Tony, now we've got something to work with. Given the BHN of 10 you measured it at the alloy probably has 1% to, at best, 3% antimony and no tin. I suggest you try this first; add 2% tin. You can scrounge some as tin can be obtained in pewter, solder or by commercial suppliers. It may seem expensive but in reality not that much tin is needed for 2%.......3.2 ounces for 10 lbs of your alloy. with the 2% tin added cast some bullets (I suggest an alloy temp of 715 +/-) and water quench them. As soon as the sprue hardens cut it and drop the bullets into water as quickly as possible. Wait 48 hours and then BHN test. Also air cool some and wait 10 days to BHN test.

If the WQ'd bullets test out at 12 - 15 BHN you've probably got an alloy then of close to 96/2/2 to 94/3/2. Those should then work just fine in your 9mm. I use a similar 94/3/3 alloy and air cool the bullets for my 9mm. For my 9mm I mostly use the Lee 356-120-TC sized .357 and lubed with BAC over 4 gr Bullseye. Very accurate with no leading.

Larry Gibson

[flyingrhino]

Hey Tony. There is a lot of good advice up above. I'm going to list some things that I suggest, having had the same problem as you. My lead runs 10-11 BHN after casting and water dropping. It drops to about 9 after coating but with age comes up some. So I don't think hardness is really your problem, at least it isn't a problem with me.

I think sizing to 357 or 358 should be sufficient if you slugged at 356. I'm assuming that your coated boolits pass the wipe and smash test.

Titegroup is on the faster side for powders. On my chart it is #16. If you have anything slower I'd try it. I really like W231 for semi-auto pistols. It's #36 on my chart. Having said that though, I'm using ETR7 right now because I got it during the big powder shortage and it is said to be equivalent to TG. When that's gone I'm going back to W231.

1. Run your loads over a chrono if you haven't yet. Get a good velocity reading. Don't rely on what the load manual tells you for velocity. My loads run right around 950 fps and function well in my 1911's and my glock. If these are plinking loads you don't need anything more than what will reliably cycle your pistol. I recommend going down to the starting load, or just above it.

2. Seat a bullet in the case then pull it (don't crimp it). Mic it. If it's NOT the same diameter as before it went in the case then you have a swaging issue. Your expander needs to be addressed. If it has signs of shaving then your bell is not enough.

3. Seat and crimp a round then pull the bullet. Check as above. If it's not the same as before it was loaded then your crimp is the culprit. The crimp should be just enough to remove the bell.

4. If you've gone through the things above and they all check out then I'd look at the lead hardness. I don't alloy any of my lead and I don't have any problems so I really don't think the hardness is the problem. I've shot almost pure lead, BHN 7-8, PC'd without any significant leading. When I shoot I typically run 500-600 rounds down range. I will get SOME leading, but it is not much. Several hundred rounds usually shows no leading at all.

[psweigle]

Hey Tony. There is a lot of good advice up above. I'm going to list some things that I suggest, having had the same problem as you. My lead runs 10-11 BHN after casting and water dropping. It drops to about 9 after coating but with age comes up some. So I don't think hardness is really your problem, at least it isn't a problem with me.

I think sizing to 357 or 358 should be sufficient if you slugged at 356. I'm assuming that your coated boolits pass the wipe and smash test.

Titegroup is on the faster side for powders. On my chart it is #16. If you have anything slower I'd try it. I really like W231 for semi-auto pistols. It's #36 on my chart. Having said that though, I'm using ETR7 right now because I got it during the big powder shortage and it is said to be equivalent to TG. When that's gone I'm going back to W231.

1. Run your loads over a chrono if you haven't yet. Get a good velocity reading. Don't rely on what the load manual tells you for velocity. My loads run right around 950 fps and function well in my 1911's and my glock. If these are plinking loads you don't need anything more than what will reliably cycle your pistol. I recommend going down to the starting load, or just above it.

2. Seat a bullet in the case then pull it (don't crimp it). Mic it. If it's NOT the same diameter as before it went in the case then you have a swaging issue. Your expander needs to be addressed. If it has signs of shaving then your bell is not enough.

3. Seat and crimp a round then pull the bullet. Check as above. If it's not the same as before it was loaded then your crimp is the culprit. The crimp should be just enough to remove the bell.

4. If you've gone through the things above and they all check out then I'd look at the lead hardness. I don't alloy any of my lead and I don't have any problems so I really don't think the hardness is the problem. I've shot almost pure lead, BHN 7-8, PC'd without any significant leading. When I shoot I typically run 500-600 rounds down range. I will get SOME leading, but it is not much. Several hundred rounds usually shows no leading at all.

Very sound advice, and very well written.

[TonyN]

So where is the cheapest place to get Tin? Solder is good source correct? Like at a local hardware ?

[Landshark9025]

So where is the cheapest place to get Tin? Solder is good source correct? Like at a local hardware ?

Cheapest place is in the Swappin' and Sellin' board here. Cash outlay you can probably do better finding pewter at Salvation Army, Thrift Stores or yard sales- but then you have to drive around and hope to get lucky. It's a lot easier and faster to just get it here. You're probably going to balk when you see $10/lb. But remember, $20 will sweeten 100lbs of lead. Which is approx. 5,000 pistol bullets.

[TonyN]

I seen Harbor freight has solder. It's 96% Tin. I have a master caster that has a 40 lb pot. Please give me info on the break down on how much I need. Harbor Freight solder is 4.00 I think for there Solder. If you don't mind checking it out to let me know if it's good to use.
Here is the link: harborfreight.com/lead-free-rosin-core-solder-69378.html

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Tin:
If you are patient and lucky, you can find pewter items at thrift stores (beware of aluminum look-a-likes). I've been lucky, and found some at a local metals scrapper (they were unsure what it was and I got it for the price of Lead). But, If you want/need it right away, the best place would be in our swappin and sellin forum, it usually goes for $8 to $10 per lb there. Solder at Hardware stores is priced at retail, and can cost $20 to $30 per lb.

[BK7saum]

TonyN,
Have you addressed the as seated diameter and confirmed that the case is not sizing down the boolit to 0.356 or below. I still believe that is the major issue and that going to a 0.357 or 0.358 expander and not just a flaring die will solve most of your problems without having 5o worry about any alloy change or sourcing tin, lino, etc. If you have a set of 38/357 dies, try the expander from them, confirm its diameter is near what you need and give it a try.

Even with an alloy change, I still believe you will have to address the expander size. So I do not think you are saving yourself any steps by trying to modify your alloy before you get the expander problem corrected.

We do need to know the as seated and pulled diameter of the boolits before any more progress can be made. Also the micrometer measurement of your current expander and brand of die. A simple flaring die is really a no-go with heavy walled cases like the 9mm and cast bullets on the softer side.

[flyingrhino]

Adding Tin will help with mold fill out but I will bet you don't see any increase in hardness. Read this http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm. As I stated before, make sure the bullet is not being sized down in the loading process and slow them down a bit. I think you will solve your problem right there. If you still have problems after doing that THEN start playing with your alloy. With the type of leading you say you are having you've got a size problem. Before I started casting my own I purchased lead bullets from Georgia Arms. That is good, hard lead. I had the same problem with those in my 9mm. I had to slow them down and get the size right. If you want a cheap way to see if your alloy is the issue, get some clip on wheel weight lead. That is near perfect alloy. That water drops to about 15 BHN and age hardens.

As BK7saum stated above, simply flaring the 9mm case is not the best way to load these. You will do better with an expander. I use the Mr. Bulletfeeder expander. It is perfect for loading lead because it expands the case just a thousandth or so which helps the bullet slide in the case without being swaged down. There are others out there, that's just what I use. I've got his expanders for all calibers I reload. Like BK7saum suggested, try a 357 expander if you have one. PULL a bullet and check to see if it's being resized/damaged during loading.

[TonyN]

Yes I sized some last night at .358 and the Bell case mouth is at .388 so I used the roll crimp as that is what I have . I crimped it enough till it went into battery then stopped there. I pulled couple bullets and they where at .358 still. The ones I did at .357 didn't completely lead the barrel til I kept shooting. I'll start at the bottom end with a load and see where it's at.

[TonyN]

I was using WW but the Hi-Tel didn't like them even with me going thru the Zink ones. The first shot with .357 size had some leading in the lands and grooves and some of the barrel didn't. It started to smooth bore after that. The .356 smooth bored right away. If I eventually add tin to get to 15 BHN with Hi-Tek would I be able to get them up to max charge? Also would you think my Sig MPX would use .358 also? Or is Glock only one with high sizing barrels? I got leading also with it.

[dondiego]

Are you trying to make a certain power factor? Why do you need a maximum powered load for a 9 MM?

[TonyN]

I just like loads that are stout. I know heavy loads can hurt accuracy. I like to mimic my carry loads.

[BK7saum]

If you need stout loads, then your alloy won't get you there even with tin. Get some lino to harden up your alloy or straight wheel weight alloy to cast with. Tin would be a waste of time and money to add to what you have.

[Larry Gibson]

"If I eventually add tin to get to 15 BHN with Hi-Tek would I be able to get them up to max charge?"

It shouldn't be a problem with any normal 9mm load, even +P ones. I've been shooting COWWs + 2% tin in all sorts of 9mms, including glocks, since I got my 1st Browning HP in '70 and a S&W M39 in '71. I also shot thousands of them (mostly 356402s) sized .356 (lubed with Javelina) w/o any leading. Didn't learn that was all wrong 'til Gore invented the internet.........

Larry Gibson

[TonyN]

What would be needed with Range lead to be able to shoot +P loads? I'll try to get this down before I get +P working.

Where is a good local place to buy Tin to add in?

[BK7saum]

Tin:
If you are patient and lucky, you can find pewter items at thrift stores (beware of aluminum look-a-likes). I've been lucky, and found some at a local metals scrapper (they were unsure what it was and I got it for the price of Lead). But, If you want/need it right away, the best place would be in our swappin and sellin forum, it usually goes for $8 to $10 per lb there. Solder at Hardware stores is priced at retail, and can cost $20 to $30 per lb.

Tin sources. Pewter would be cheapest. About $8/lb more or less.