Need help with Range lead and casting

[TonyN]

I have a .356.357.358 dies. I try to put just enough crimp to cycle the round and not crimp the bullet. I'll try .358 and just enough crimp to crimp the case. The dies are hornady roll crimp style.

[Bigslug]

The problem may not be fixable so long as 10 BHN metal is all you have, but since that is the metal you have, you're gonna have to try fixing it with just techniques related to fit. . .and with metal that soft, it'll be a challenge.

Sounds like what you mostly have is brass sizing down the too-soft bullets. My Dad partly solved the problem in his Springfield 1911 by liberating the sizing die from my .38 S&W set, which opens up the case for a .360"+ diameter bullet. From there, you only have to worry about going overboard on the taper crimp. The other part of the solution, sad to say, was going to a rifle-hard alloy. The 9mm is a high pressure round, and Glock bores are spec'd for jacketed to the point that the factory regards lead as plutonium. Guys do shoot lead in them, but usually after a fair bit of technical application.

Rotometals sells their "Superhard" alloy (30% antimony/70% lead) as an economical means of hardening up your too-soft range lead. Since antimony contents of only 3-6% will do the trick for any pistol application, a little will go a long way. Get a few pounds of tin from them in the process and you'll have endless possibilities. Some guidelines for Superhard use here: http://www.lasc.us/SuperHard.htm

[TonyN]

I can bell the case mouth as large as I need so it's not a problem.

[Dusty Bannister]

Perhaps it is just the term used. There is a difference. There is expanding the case mouth to just a little smaller than the cast bullet diameter and there is flaring or belling the case mouth like a funnel. Belling the case will allow a soft bullet to enter the case mouth undamaged, but the body of the case will still make the bullet diameter smaller if you do not use the proper tool to expand the case.

[TonyN]

It's the powder throw die powder exspander die that I use in my hornady dies.

[243winxb]

glock 17 barrels and lead. I see many use an after market barrel for lead. Why?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

First, an alloy needs 2% antimony for water-dropping or heat treating to work properly. I suspect your range scrap has less than 2% antimony.
http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

Second, adding linotype alloy to your range scrap will be the easiest and cheapest way to 'build up' your range scrap.

Third, (this actually should be first) Pull a boolit with a inertia puller and measure. As others have mentioned, 9mm brass that's sized and expanded with J-word dies creates the common problem of swaging the boolit smaller, which causes barrel lead fouling. The fix is buying/making a larger expander.
Good Luck

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yes these where at max on hogdon site with titegroup . I used 125 grain RN and I use Magma molds.

What pressure does Hodgdon say this load creates? If your pressure is over 20Kpsi, it could be one of your problems.
A specific alloy will only withstand a specific pressure. The LASC link at the bottom of the page should help you understand. I refer to it often.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

here is another good read on 9mm
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-in-a-new-9mm

[Scharfschuetze]

glock 17 barrels and lead. I see many use an after market barrel for lead. Why?

Gocks have a very smooth form of rifling optimized for jacketed bullets. I'm not sure of the term that Glock uses for it, but it's akin to pollygonal rifling. Oversize bullets or coated bullets are often recommended to prevent leading in this style of rifling. After market barrels are usually of conventional rifling and are much easier to get good cast bullet performance out of.

I have Range Lead and it's at 10 BHN with water dropped as I haven't checked after couple says so may harden couple.

Regarding the OP's question regarding range lead:

Years ago Larry and I mined an indoor range when we were both assigned to the same unit. It had an indoor range which gave us a bunch of lead. Most of it (probably 90%) was from military issued FMJ 45 ACP and 9mm ball ammo, although there was some .22RF, Double 00 Buck and cast bullets mixed in.

An X-ray examination of the smelted lead showed it to have a content of about 91% lead, 8% antimony and < 1% tin. In order to use the hundreds of pounds of Pb that we mined out of the range, I make an alloy of 50% range lead, 40% pure lead and 10% linotype, although sometimes I have to add some pure tin for castability. I generally end up with an alloy of 94/4/2 which gives me very good performance with cast bullets in either revolvers, pistols or rifles.

During my police career, I often mined the police pistol range backstop for lead. I never had it analyzed, but most of the projectiles that we fired in training were soft, swaged wadcutters or fairly soft cast SWCs, it was pretty soft stuff with little antimony or tin and usually needed some Sb and Sn added to the smelt to cast well and to raise its BHN.

As several have noted in posts previous to mine, it would help to find out the content of your smelted range lead by going to a junk yard that has an X-ray tester and determine the actual content of your range lead. It might be good to go as is, or you may need to alloy in more Pb, Sn or Sb to get it to a point where it is usable for the weapon and velocity levels you want to reach.

[TonyN]

My load is 4.0 at pressure at 30.000 and FPS at 1050

[TonyN]

I might buy a Lone wolf barrel to hope take care of the problem

[Larry Gibson]

TonyN

Being from an indoor or outdoor range is not helping. Do you know whether the bullet alloy recovered was from cast, jacketed or a combination? Knowing that will give us a better idea of its antimony and tin content so that we can better answer your question of;

"Is there any way to harden the lead to like 15 BHN without spending much money?"

Yes there are ways to harden your alloy without spending too much money. First we have to get an idea of what your alloy consists of. Please answer the questions and be specific.

What load are you using; powder type and charge? "4.0 at pressure at 30.000 and FPS at 1050" answers only half of that question but leaves out the important part.......what powder?

Do you have any Lee Liquid Alox, any NRA formula 50/50 lube or any White Label BAC lube?

If your load leaded in a Sig what makes you think getting a Lone Wolf barrel will solve the problem? The problem is in your load.

Larry Gibson

[243winxb]

Lyman - Heat Treatment of Cast Bullets to Harden Them
Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

[murf205]

Is that Magma mold a beveled base mold? Never, and I mean never, had any luck with beveled base molds. Try a plain base boolit in the barrel of that Glock before you buy another barrel.

[Landshark9025]

I just skimmed the previous posts, but let me save you some time. I recover scrap from an outdoor range that is primarily factory. I've had two different batches tested with an XRF gun. One came back at .9% antimony and the other at .8%. I tried everything. Water dropping. Different lubes in my Star. Traditional lube with two coats of BLL, powder coating, Hi-tek, three different types of powder. And almost all combinations. I was never able to get the leading completely away. There would always be some in two or three grooves of my HK. HK uses polygonal rifling- but it is somewhat different than a Glock.

This worked. It has worked well, repeatedly. Yes, your alloy cost goes up. You're talking .50-.60/lb. But it works.

• Take 45-48 lbs of your range scrap ingots and put them in your smelting pot.
• Drop in one lb of tin (see if you can locate Butternutz here on the forum)
• Then drop in one ingot of Super Hard from Rotometals.
• Mix, pour into ingots.
• Cast. Lube and size. I have found either Lars Carnuba Red, X-lox 2500+ or Ben's Red all work great. I often throw two coats of BLL on just for good measure. Helps to make them less "sticky".
• Let age at least a week. One month is better.

I tried cutting this alloy with Range Scrap and tin 50/50 and it ceased to work as well. Start with the above one Super Hard ingot per 50lbs Range Scrap. You are still less than a penny a bullet.

[flyingrhino]

I've seen the same issue with 9mm. I found that just slowing them down solved my problem with leading. If they are being used for plinking there is no need to push the fast. My lead runs around 10 BHN. Powder coated or HiTek'd they don't lead at about 1000 fps or less. I load to 950-1000 fps.

[HP9MM]

My experience agrees with Dusty's experience. I cast range lead which is a mixture of jacketed and lead bullets. It comes out after a water drop at 10 and in about 2 to 3 weeks it is about 15. No problem with significant leading.

[fredj338]

Yes these where at max on hogdon site with titegroup . I used 125 grain RN and I use Magma molds.

The TG is part of the problem IMO, burns too hot, melts your lube.
I berm mine from outdoor ranges. Most of my lead comes in 10-11bhn air cooled. I shoot it in everything up to about 1100fps with no serious leading issues. Indoor range scrap is likely closer to pure lead as it is mostly 22lr & jacketed cores. Even water dropping won't harden it much, no antimony. You can buy some hardball or lino & mix it with the range scrap then water drop. It sounds like a sizing issue. Pull a bullet, after seating & measure it.

[Silverboolit]

I had the same problem as the OP. Ended up using a 9mm PTX die from LEE with the .38 S&W expander tube instead of the 9mm tube the die came with. The 9mm cartridge is tapered on the inside, and the S&W drop tube sizes the case further down to a larger diameter so it doesn't size the lead boolit. Also, you should be using a tapered crimp die, not a roll crimp on a 9mm as the 9mm headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge.