Ramping up for a new caliber

[marlinman93]

Picked up another Ballard rifle, and it is a HM Pope Ballard with 3 barrels in a cased outfit. Two calibers are easy, and common; the .32-40, and .22WCF. The last is an unknown. Pope made his own .28 called the .28-30 Pope, which was the .38 Extra Long necked down to .28 caliber. But this Pope is the only known done on a .25-35 Win. case! It's referred to as a .28-35, but that's just a guess.
Two old Win. 1882 and 1884 loading tools came with it, but nothing except a chamber cast for the .28 barrel!







So today I got out some .25-35 brass to see if I could easily make them, and avoid buying expensive die sets! I started with my old Lyman M dies and a .264" expander. Sprayed it with case lube and it ran in easily. Then stepped up to the .277" expander, and finally the .284" expander.
After that I got my 7x57 Mauser dies out, and ran the cases into the sizing die to size them down to the correct outside diameter. Now I need to slug the bore, and see what that is. Then figure out the twist rate on the front and rear parts of the bore. It's a typical Pope gain twist barrel, so need to check the entire length to determine starting and ending twist rate.
But the completed brass fit in with just finger pressure and light resistance. Fire forming will tell the difference, and after that I'll simply neck size. I can use the 7x57 dies from here on as the larger body will not touch the rest of the case.

[OlDeuce]

Picked up another Ballard rifle, and it is a HM Pope Ballard with 3 barrels in a cased outfit. Two calibers are easy, and common; the .32-40, and .22WCF. The last is an unknown. Pope made his own .28 called the .28-30 Pope, which was the .38 Extra Long necked down to .28 caliber. But this Pope is the only known done on a .25-35 Win. case! It's referred to as a .28-35, but that's just a guess.
Two old Win. 1882 and 1884 loading tools came with it, but nothing except a chamber cast for the .28 barrel!







So today I got out some .25-35 brass to see if I could easily make them, and avoid buying expensive die sets! I started with my old Lyman M dies and a .264" expander. Sprayed it with case lube and it ran in easily. Then stepped up to the .277" expander, and finally the .284" expander.
After that I got my 7x57 Mauser dies out, and ran the cases into the sizing die to size them down to the correct outside diameter. Now I need to slug the bore, and see what that is. Then figure out the twist rate on the front and rear parts of the bore. It's a typical Pope gain twist barrel, so need to check the entire length to determine starting and ending twist rate.
But the completed brass fit in with just finger pressure and light resistance. Fire forming will tell the difference, and after that I'll simply neck size. I can use the 7x57 dies from here on as the larger body will not touch the rest of the case.

Marlinman.....what a nice buy!!! and a set no less .....Way cool stuff Ol Deuce

[marlinman93]

Thanks Ol Deuce! I'm in love with it, and it quickly shoot to the top of my favorite rifle list! Almost finished getting provenance on past owners. I got it a week ago, and have chain of ownership since Pope built it in 1898. Just need a last name for the gentleman who had it since 1975.

[ascast]

Very nice indeed! I wish I could...... Is the Pope luber made by him? and how so marked? What are the "T" wrenches for?

[Texas by God]

Exscuisite. I love the fact that you are shooting it; not keeping it locked up in that fancy case.
Best of luck to you.

[725]

Wow. What a joy. Eager to hear bout your efforts.

[Jack Stanley]

Very interesting set , ought to be fun to make it work again huh?

Jack

[marlinman93]

Very nice indeed! I wish I could...... Is the Pope luber made by him? and how so marked? What are the "T" wrenches for?

The Pope style lube pump is a clone made by Barry Darr. Also a very highly respected barrel and mold maker in our time. It is marked "B Darr" to keep the bad guys from passing it off as a real Pope. But Barry told me he cast the bodies off an original Pope pump loaned to him by Claude Roderick.
The T handles are screwed into the pump to compress the lube.

[marlinman93]

Exscuisite. I love the fact that you are shooting it; not keeping it locked up in that fancy case.
Best of luck to you.

Yes, I shoot all my old guns, but with care. I have targets that came with the set, and want to use the load data on them to attempt to reproduce the tight groups those targets have! Some previous owner could really shoot!

Picked up two other gorgeous Ballard rifles, and a pair of Rolling Block Sporting Rifles. But they will have to gather dust in the safe for awhile, as the Pope set has my full attention presently!

[OlDeuce]

Yes, I shoot all my old guns, but with care. I have targets that came with the set, and want to use the load data on them to attempt to reproduce the tight groups those targets have! Some previous owner could really shoot!

Picked up two other gorgeous Ballard rifles, and a pair of Rolling Block Sporting Rifles. But they will have to gather dust in the safe for awhile, as the Pope set has my full attention presently!

I know how that comes tobe LoL............Out of all the winchesters I've owned the only one that has NOT been fired is my Hi-grade 94 ......and that might
not be true in the near future LoL Ol Deuce

[marlinman93]

I know how that comes tobe LoL............Out of all the winchesters I've owned the only one that has NOT been fired is my Hi-grade 94 ......and that might
not be true in the near future LoL Ol Deuce

I don't own any guns that likely haven't been fired a fair amount by previous owners. So my shooting them is certainly not going to be the first shots downrange! But I do limit some rare or very special guns to special care, and limited shooting. They've survived 130-140 years, and deserve to last that many more!
This Pope Ballard is a 3 digit serial number, so dates to 1875. Pope did his barrel work on it in 1898, so it's got a lot of years behind, with owners who appreciated it, but shot it too! Imagine it was 23 years old when it went to Pope!

[marlinman93]

These two others I got in Denver will be a piece of cake to work up loads for!
This one is .32-20, and I have lots of good cast bullet loads with Unique for that caliber!



This one is .22LR, so scope or sight settings are all it will need!

[OlDeuce]

I don't own any guns that likely haven't been fired a fair amount by previous owners. So my shooting them is certainly not going to be the first shots downrange! But I do limit some rare or very special guns to special care, and limited shooting. They've survived 130-140 years, and deserve to last that many more!
This Pope Ballard is a 3 digit serial number, so dates to 1875. Pope did his barrel work on it in 1898, so it's got a lot of years behind, with owners who appreciated it, but shot it too! Imagine it was 23 years old when it went to Pope!

The Numbers WoW.......I do have one and It's Ser.# 13......... yes 13 I couldn't believe what I had bought ! Sadly there is no MFG.marks on the gun and is in excellent shape action is tight, bore's shinny.the wood is carver Maple leaves & acorns ..To my eyes and others that have viewed it .They call
it a salesman sample ... tome it looks like Marlin in the wood ??????but its only a guess
Marlinman ........Your Ballards are Beautiful ......Ol Deuce

[Artful]

Outstanding find and pictures - thanks for posting

[marlinman93]

The Numbers WoW.......I do have one and It's Ser.# 13......... yes 13 I couldn't believe what I had bought ! Sadly there is no MFG.marks on the gun and is in excellent shape action is tight, bore's shinny.the wood is carver Maple leaves & acorns ..To my eyes and others that have viewed it .They call
it a salesman sample ... tome it looks like Marlin in the wood ??????but its only a guess
Marlinman ........Your Ballards are Beautiful ......Ol Deuce

Not sure about a salesman's sample, as there would be no reason to not serial number a salesman's sample back then. Often salesmen ended up letting their sample go to a dealer at some point after the factory sent them another gun, so a serial number would be done. Plus the serial numbers were done before the final finish, as Marlin used serial numbers to keep all the hand fitted parts together for assembly. Serial numbers couldn't be applied after casehardening, so they were done early on in the process.
It's possible the marks were removed by an old refinish. That's the case with my Pope Ballard, and there's no sign of refinishing, but I'm guessing it was done in 1898, when the barrel and stocks were changed. 119 years later there's no way to know what was done in 1898.
A picture might help determine if it's a Marlin or Brown Ballard. I have an early JM Marlin assembled from Brown Mfg. parts, and they look identical, except for the extractor system. Mine is also marked JM Marlin, but has the Brown lever, frame pin, deep crescent buttplate, hammer, and trigger of a Brown.

[Bent Ramrod]

Marlinman93,

Is that spigot on the front of the action of your Pope-Ballard Harry Pope's patented quick-change barrel attachment? Never saw one in real life before, just the drawings.

He also fitted the breechblock with a rim-or-center firing pin housing that could be turned with a two-pin spanner and locked with a set screw.

U.S. 384,277, June 12, 1888.

[marlinman93]

Marlinman93,

Is that spigot on the front of the action of your Pope-Ballard Harry Pope's patented quick-change barrel attachment? Never saw one in real life before, just the drawings.

He also fitted the breechblock with a rim-or-center firing pin housing that could be turned with a two-pin spanner and locked with a set screw.

U.S. 384,277, June 12, 1888.

Not sure, but guessing it is a Pope patented item. I have a friend who owned a Pope Ballard with a single barrel, and had the same takedown system mine has. His was sold at Amoskeag Auctions in Nov. 2015. But I had looked it over closely before that time, and it was the same as mine.
Here's a picture of his Pope with the same system:



But both of ours use the standard firing pin. I'd guess because neither had a spare RF barrel.

[blackbahart]

nice/beautiful cased set .Is it a marlin ballard?We don't find treasures like that up here

[marlinman93]

nice/beautiful cased set .Is it a marlin ballard?We don't find treasures like that up here

Thanks! Yes, it was built on a first year 1875 JM Marlin Ballard #5xx. A forged receiver #6 Schuetzen I would guess from the pistol grip receiver, and ball and spur lever.
We don't find these around Oregon either! Had to attend a big show like Denver to see great stuff show up!

I did buy the two volume Hartford Pope books at Denver, after buying the set. In the last pages of Vol. 2 on p.494-495, I found the patent drawing and description of Pope's takedown system, which was granted a patent in 1888.
Had several guys (including some experts) tell me the takedown system wasn't Pope's. But seeing the drawings, it's clearly the identical setup this set has on it, so it would seem it is indeed HM Pope's system.

[Reverend Al]

Those are all beautiful works of art, but I'm glad you will still be shooting them!