SUCCESS sleeve/fireforming 45-70 to 43 Dutch Beaumont-45-70 dies,no trimming

[CaptainCrossman]

That's a lot of work! I buy 43 Beaumont cases made from reformed CBC 24 ga boxer shotgun brass, 25 in a box for less than $50. Cases work great, all I have to do is just neck size after shooting with a 45 colt die. Cases are holding up after several cycles. No pressure problems with blackpowder loads. Rifle is very accurate. Cases use large pistol primers, and I shoot a RNFB 458 bullet lubed with SPG over a card wad, with a foam backer rod filler over the powder.

how is depriming 45-70, and loading it bone stock with cast lead bullets, then slipping sleeves over it, a lot of work ? that had to be the easiest cartridge conversion I ever did in a long time.
the shotgun shells are yet another option, thanks for sharing. I have a few questions about using 24 gauge, cuz all the online info says to use 32 gauge/14mm shells to convert to Beaumont. are you sure that wasn't 32 gauge ?
I heard about the shotgun shell option. When I bought the 45-70 brass, the gun shop had a box of 14mm shotgun shells, which I think is the same as 32 gauge. they were $1.50/round loaded. pretty sure the size is the same or very close to a 43 Beaumont, cuz I had a Beaumont loaded round and compared the shell heads and rims.
25 empty shells for $50, that's not exactly cheap though, then you have to load them yet. for that much you could just buy a box of loaded ammo from Gad's, shoot them the first time, and keep the brass for free. no work at all for the first 20 rounds.
IMHO if the brass is $2 each for starters, I'd pass. but that's just me...it's something to keep an eye out for in the gun shop and gun show bins though. I guess if you get a lot of cycles out of them then it may be worthwhile.

my motto is when it gets over $1 a shot, that sorta takes the fun out of it for me. that hole in the paper isn't worth a $1 per hole to me. again that's just me. most of the ammo I get is $5-$10 per box of 20, or less- reloaded or old stock. found a lot of vintage loaded ammo that was 3 rounds/$1 i.e. 33 cents each. the only thing I paid $2 a round for, was 33 Winchester and 348 Winchester.

[CaptainCrossman]

$78 a box at Buffalo Arms right now, loaded.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/43-dutch...amo43beaumontb

[CaptainCrossman]

[QUOTE=Artful;4058942]Well done CaptainCrossman! And what a feeling of accomplishment you must

yes it's fun to do and I like sharing the info with others with the same rifle. we all learn as we go.

[CaptainCrossman]

That's a lot of work! I buy 43 Beaumont cases made from reformed CBC 24 ga boxer shotgun brass, 25 in a box for less than $50. Cases work great, all I have to do is just neck size after shooting with a 45 colt die. Cases are holding up after several cycles. No pressure problems with blackpowder loads. Rifle is very accurate. Cases use large pistol primers, and I shoot a RNFB 458 bullet lubed with SPG over a card wad, with a foam backer rod filler over the powder.

24 gauge is oversize at the mouth and bore for the Beaumont chamber, it's over .600" diameter, are you sure you didn't mean 32 gauge ? otherwise how are you sizing that brass down to get it inside the Beaumont chamber ? this chamber is only .577" at its widest point.
cuz I had looked into this already, the 32 gauge most closely resembles the Beaumont. in Europe they call it a 14mm shotgun shell.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/shotshellloads.html

[dogmower]

I use either 50-90 cases or 32 gauge shotshell brass to form cases. I shoot a 370 grain cast boolit over imr4198. shoots great, no overpressure signs, and I haven't lost a case yet. my method of case forming is:
trim the cases a few thousandths over on the tubing cutter Harbor Freight sells. Anneal. Form cases sizer die. Trim using the Lee trimmer (cutter mounted in a vise, case spun in my drill press). Lee doesn't make a guide rod/trim length rod for that caliber, so I just made one on the lathe. Case mouths come out nice and square and it's fast.
BTW, I have an extra 43 Beaumont size die I'll sell if anyone is interested. I originally bought the sizing die from c4hd for $115 and just used my 450/577 martini seating die to seat the boolits, but a nice gent here sold me a complete die set, so I have the extra sizer die. pm me if interested.

[EDG]

I don't think this in general a safe method to reform brass. The OP has demonstrated that many cases may crack even in low pressure BP rounds.

Not every rifle will handle escaping gas the same way. You could easily get hurt fire forming brass with this method if you use the brass later in a high pressure round.

What kind of failures are you going to have 5 or 10 reloads later? That has not been fully tested.

[CaptainCrossman]

got a few more experimental shells to test fire in the Beaumont chamber, loaded them up yesterday. hopefully will have time today to try them out, weather permitting. it's been raining a lot lately.
8mm Lebel- this one was emptied of lead/powder, carefully annealed in pan w/water, reloaded with Trail Boss 16gr and the original bullet, to see how it fireformed. The original Berdan primer failed to fire.
I pulled bullet/powder again, drilled out Berdan primer, and pressed in a new old stock #57 Fiocci shotgun primer. They are the smaller primer used for early brass shotgun shells, and fit the Lebel better than a #209 shotgun primer. The 209 was too big to get in there, the Lebel rifle brass has a thicker primer pocket inside, would require more reaming to get the hole size right. The #57 pressed right in after just drilling out the Berdan with the usual drill bit I use for Berdan removal, 7/32". Also drilled a slight chamfer around the primer hole using a 5/16" bit.

[CaptainCrossman]

one of those old loaded 11mm cartridges I cut off to fireform, had a jacketed bullet. jacketed bullets were introduced to deal with the higher pressures of smokeless powders in the late 1800's. not wanting to throw caution to the wind and wreck one of my Beaumont rifles with hasty carelessness- some net research revealed that headstamp indeed could be loaded with smokeless powder by design, here's what I found. "poudre sans fumee" means smokeless powder in French. so I drilled the bullet out and removed it, there was a wad under the bullet, and powder that is large square/round black flakes. it looks like blackpowder loaded, but can't tell for sure- I changed it anyway to 16 grains Trail Boss, and put a new cast lead bullet in.

[CaptainCrossman]

The 433 Eqyptian shotshell brass loaded up easily, with a boxer primer, 16gr Trail Boss, and a cast lead bullet. Those I don't have to fire, I know they will work.

[CaptainCrossman]

the Egyptian brass won't be fired, nothing to prove there.
the 3 old 11mm cutoff shells will be fired today. pretty sure they will fireform, unless there's a brittle case issue again. I did not anneal them.
the big suspense is, what will an 8mm Lebel round do when fired in the 43 Beaumont chamber ?
stay tuned, we're going to find out when the string is pulled. I'd bet Vegas odds it's going to split the brass, but I did anneal that one so here goes...

[CaptainCrossman]

well the rain stopped and I got out and fired a few more test cartridges
all the old 11mm ammo did not work out.

the SFM marked shell that I reloaded with Trail Boss and a cast lead bullet, split upon firing. the original primer did go off.

the blackpowder shell that was dated "1887" went off like a 50 cal. Hawken flintlock, with a big bang and cloud of blackpowder smoke, and bucked in the bench tiedown- and the original primer on that worked too. amazing, a 139 year old primer still fired. upon ejecting it, the shell was broken in half, and the front portion had to be removed from the chamber with a wire brush on a cleaning rod.

so far this showed that the old turn of the century brass is just too brittle to re-use, even if annealed. remember all 6 of the 43 Spanish brass also split even though it was annealed.

the unmarked case head 11 shell, failed to fire. the primer did not ignite. so that one has to be taken apart, and converted to shotgun primer, and loaded up again.

now the kicker- the 8mm Lebel brass, that was converted to shotgun primer, and annealed- that one fire formed into a useable 43 Beaumont brass casing- albeit .100" on the short side. the OAL on the fireformed Lebel brass is 1.940"

I have another 20+ rounds of that 8mm Lebel loaded ammo, am going to pull all the bullets, convert them all to shotgun primer, and fire form them all.
below is the fired 11mm cases that were cut off- left to right:

SFM cartridge, had Trail Boss/new cast bullet- split when fired.
unmarked blackpowder cartridge, did not fire, bad primer
"1887" blackpowder cartridge, broke in half when fired.

[CaptainCrossman]

the split SFM case, and broken in two "1887" case

[CaptainCrossman]

this was a pleasant little surprise- the annealed 8MM Lebel cartridge, fireformed to a nearly perfect 43 Beaumont case- albeit to a 1.940" length. these will work, the bullet will have to jump that distance to get into the rifling- on the bright side, you'll never have to trim them...(chuckle...)

here are pics with the chamber centering tape, and with tape removed. when fired next time without tape, the lower part of the case should fire form to full diameter of chamber- and the case should grow longer yet with each successive firing.

[CaptainCrossman]

here is a comparison of the 8mm Lebel fire formed case, to others cases.
compared to the 433 Egyptian unfired, the sleeved 45-70 fire formed case, and a Starline brass 50-90 that has been fired 4 times and reloaded by just neck sizing.

[CaptainCrossman]

Seeing the Lebel case fireform so easily to near net size, got me thinking, how would a 348 Winchester case loaded with trail boss/cast lead work, simply fire formed in the Beaumont ? my hunch is, it should have to work even better than the Lebel, being the 348 brass is longer, and higher quality commercial brass, not military. the 348 cartridge chambers in the Beaumont rifle.

somebody pinch me- yes it's true and actually worked- an 8MM Lebel milsurp case will fire form to 43 Beaumont, by firing the original 8mm bullet rattling down the bore, using 16gr of Trail Boss powder. Still can't believe it worked, and didn't split.

below pic, left to right- the fire formed Lebel case, center is a factory unfired 348 Winchester silver tip, and on the right a reloaded Starline 50-90 fire formed case that was neck sized and reloaded.

I am not going to steal brass from my Model 71 to use in the Beaumont, but I do have 45-70 brass that was already resized to either 33 Win or 348 Win somewhere here ? that I die sized and never used, cuz then I found and bought a lot of factory 33 and 348 Win. brass shortly thereafter. when time allows am going to reclaim that brass for the Beaumont as well- in addition to the rest of the Lebel loaded ammo I have. the 33 Win and 348 Win hopefully will fire form without any brass sleeves, being they are larger tapered cases at the base similar to a Lebel, not straight wall like a 45-70. will test one brass 33 or 348 case first, to see how it works. if they split oh well nix the idea.

the benefit of using the Lebel brass is, it has a larger rim than 45-70 and should extract/eject easier in the Beaumont.

hope you guys find this informative, I sure did- and it was interesting and fun doing it. there's quite a few options available to fire form 43 Beaumont brass from, without ever trimming a case, or buying pricey 43 Beaumont dies, and 50-90 brass. I may buy a few of those 32 gauge paper shells, cut them off, and load them with 45 cal. round balls, and see how they work- if they chamber. the tests showed the old, turn of the century brass is good for just one shot then it splits. all the rumors about old brass being very brittle, appear to be true.

[CaptainCrossman]

ps- the rest of the 8mm Lebel ammo, most likely they all have bad primers too...pulling all the tips, dumping the powder, converting them all to shotgun primers, to make 43 Beaumont....this is a project for another rainy day....or maybe a winter night 2017-18 ??...

adios for now, I need a break !!

[TexTenn59]

BTW, I have an extra 43 Beaumont size die I'll sell if anyone is interested. I originally bought the sizing die from c4hd for $115 and just used my 450/577 martini seating die to seat the boolits, but a nice gent here sold me a complete die set, so I have the extra sizer die. pm me if interested.

PM sent

[mazo kid]

CC, it seems that you are trying to make viable ammo from questionable brass. I made a few cases from 45-70 brass; simply wrapped a length of the base with furnace tape to help keep it centered in the bore. I didn't care for the "pregnant guppie" look, but never lost any due to splitting. I bought 50 pieces of 50-90 brass for $56.00 shipped and trimmed and formed some of those. I didn't buy any dies, just used what I had on-hand to neck the brass. The shoulder was quite sharp, but on fire-forming, they tapered up nicely. Since I only have the one rifle, I can shoot those for a long time without needing to FL size.

[toot]

this is a great tutorial! i think it should be added to a STICKY!