Since I drug the Sharps out of the back of the safe and started shooting it again, I have been thinking of trying PP. From what I can tell advantage would be no leading, but you have to wipe or blow tube after every shot. Am I missing something? Just asking trying to learn.
Thanks Scott
i started with ppb's last october and yep, zero leading. if you use grease cookies, you might be able to get away with just a blow tube. lots will prolly depend on that grease cookie, besides the parameters and components of the cartridge build. i use no grease cookies, waste of time and material, and i mostly want more powder in the .45-70 case than less. so i hafta wipe between firings using BACO bore wipes and an arsenal patch, all sent down the tube at the same time. bore wipes are the cat's meow! there are a few good books on ppb's, and after reading 3 or 4 i think that hand's down randy wright's book is the best for newbies to ppb's.
I will get the books, sounds like good reading
I will second Randolph S Wrights book, Loading and Shooting the Paper Patched bullet a beginners Guide. It very good and full of useful information. I still am shooting both but the paper patch are interesting and do allow more room for Black Powder.
it's been a fun ride with ppb's, and my only regret is not having started decades ago. i'm hooked, no more greasers for me.
even the shiloh #1 is getting the OL ppb chamber ream, too.
randy's book is tops, IMHO. he lays it all out in a very easy to read and understand fashion, and his personal drawings are just excellent.
Do you have to ream the chamber.
not a requirement.Originally Posted by sac
I'm new at this as well so don't know a lot of terminology. How it seems is that you need extra throat in the chamber if you start to paper patch so the bullet is not seated into the casing as much. Is this what was meant above by reaming the chamber? I ask this because I would like to get into PP but my csharps doesn't have any throat at all.
Exal, what you want is a bore diameter paper patch bullet. Example= my 45 calibers use .444 diameter bullets when patched with .002 paper they and up at .450/.4505 and I can seat them to any length and chamber easily. If you want to use a fire formed case with no sizing use a 2 diameter bullet...base when patched will be a friction fit in the case and the nose diameter will clear the fouling ahead of the chamber. Both work well and I use both. One for target shooting and one for hunting. Very easy to do and they will shoot! No chamber modifications necessary.
The original PP chambers wouldn't chamber a round loaded with a grease grooved bullet or would just barely. They were a smaller dia due to the bullets being smaller dia being bore riding and not groove dia. I have have good results with standard chambers and the leade from off of the case mouth. I would like to try the chamber being .009 - .010 smaller dia so as not to work brass as much. But you cant ream a smaller hole on the bigger so Until I re barrel its not going to happen. My brooks moulp cast at .443 and wrapped ends up at .449. These are 540 grn and only seated into case .180 from case mouth.
CG.
The Sharps, Remington as well as Maynard did make cannelured bullet moulds and sold cannelured bullets but they were a little different in designs. They did not have the reduced bore riding nose and especially the Remington co used grooved bullets with a hollow base like the mini design but these.
Here is a mould from the Sharps Co. made for Maynard Mfg Co.
Exal.
Using a chamber for a PP bullet using the what I call modern chamber that mostly use a 45 degree chamber end then going into a 2-1/2 slightly more or less degree throat will shoot a PP just fine. The original chambers had a funnel type transition from the case neck to the top of the lands. My thought on this type of chamber the old rifles had are a little friendlier using a lead or paper patched. The funnel transition will not strip lead off the bullet shank if the case is not of proper length and you will get a lead ring that if not cleaned out will get smeared into the bore. Below are some chamber casts of my rifle chambers and a couple chamber casts from original Sharps. One is from a original Sharps used for the Creedmoor matches (the top cast) and for my second .44-2-5/8 (.44-90bn) I had a reamer duplicated from that cast and had it used for the second .44-2-5/8 BN. Here is a close up of the chamber casts in my Shiloh's. The left has 45 degree transition what is mostly now used in rifles and the right has a 4 degree/1.5 degree compound transition lead. I call this a lead bullet chamber. The 45 degree came around when the jacketed bullets came into use with smokeless powder.
I know some say that the 45 degree is better then the old once but I changed most of my rifles from a 45 to a 5 degree or less and they all improved the way they shoot. I can use a 2.1 case in a 2.4 chamber and it shoots just fine
Thanks for information. I'm still trying to digest some of it but most of it makes since.
eric or country gent
one question I have is that if the bullet is bore riding then what is grabbing the rifling. Is the the obturation that makes the battle grab the rifling or it the actual bullet bore Rodin and the paper is wrapped to match the groove diameter?
Lead pot
That pretty interesting how much the chambers have changed through the years. Since I am using a 45-70 I shouldn't have to worry about the lead ring unless my cases are cut way short correct?
Exal
Yes chances are better for getting rings with a short case, paper or lead. For me in my rifles with a 45 degree chamber end I keep my unseized cases five thousands short of the transition into the throat, a little more if I full length the cases, something I don't do unless the case was used in a different rifle. This allows the case to get pulled forward with the powder burn and bullet expansion with out getting pulled over the chamber end up into the throat to make more uneven neck tensions causing vertical or even separation of the case neck if there is excessive moisture in the chamber or case lube if the case was seized.
I know some say they don't get rings with a 45 chamber end, but they are there if one would look for them even with a case tight in the chamber.
Kurt
i can see where ppb's can be, um, kinda "preferentially meticulous" about their cartridge build.
the shiloh #1 due in december was ordered with the orville loomer ppb chamber ream. i think that's the 7* with the smaller diameter throat which i think would also mean all my current fire formed brass (from ppb's in a pedersoli roller) won't fit the shiloh.
also, right now, the roller's fired brass is huge mouth drop-in for for a patched .443 bullet that measures .449+" around the paper, which requires a slight taper "crimp" (rather, a squeeze) to keep a bullet from falling out, yet after the squeeze the bullet will rotate in the case mouth. with the orville chamber, it sounds like a resulting fire formed brass might, or will, be a tight fit from the get-go.
Exal,
The paper patched boolits are typically a sliding fit on top of the lands of the rifling. You can generally push the patched boolit through the barrel with your cleaning or wiping rod. These are seated in the case as far out as possible, so the boolit protrudes into the rifling.
More than half of the products of black powder combustion, by weight, are solids. At the instant of combustion, you have an aerosol of fine particulates expanding at the same rate as the gaseous combustion products. The particulates slow down as they travel up the barrel, leaving fouling, and outside the muzzle are traveling only fast enough to provide a cloud of smoke, expanding in all directions, but mainly forward.
But at the beginning, the particulates are going full speed, and they hit whatever is in their way like a solid object traveling at the same velocity. Since the lead is soft and dense, it has a lot of inertia, so by the time it starts moving forward, the force of the particulates has swaged it up to fill the grooves to their bottom.
If you have a normal chamber and the fired cases are coming out to large for the patched bullet patched to bore diameter, you will be light years ahead of the game to full length resize the cases and then expand them with a custom expander die to make a very tight fit for the patched bullet.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
been there, done that, doesn't make a noticeable difference. besides, why work the brass and have to deal with annealing, not to mention less room for powder? all ya need to do is give the case with seated ppb a light taper crimp.
I know you'll find better accuracy with a tight fitting bullet, and no crimp of any kind. Who anneals cases? Less powder would be a problem because?
Long range rules, the rest drool.
no, i don't find better accuracy by sizing and expanding and making a tight bullet fit, i find the opposite is better. as you already know, working brass hardens it and will make it fail sooner than later. more powder can be a good thing and not a detrimental thing, you should know that already, too.
Looking forward to seeing your scores with your set up. What works for one person may not be what works for the next.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
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