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Thread: Sub Bashing

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy brad925's Avatar
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    Sub Bashing

    Not sure why people come on here, when they clearly do not use or like subs, other than to piss somebody off! Let me make it clear that i would tamp a load of pig **** down the barrel if i thought it would work. I shoot everything. Sub smokeless black whatever is available. Black here is $50 lb. Pyrodex RS is $30 lb - Select is $36 lb Smokeless is $47 - $50 lb. There is enough of a reason for using sub not to mention the fact that you get more shots from a pound of pyrodex than a pound of Black. The last few years there has been a shortage of powder here in Canada. It forced a lot of people to try different powders and that was a good thing. Now i have loads worked up for several different smokeless powders. As far as muzzleloading and BP cartridge i never had a problem finding subs close by but black is a whole other story. And i find them to work in my 45-70 as good as the black and smokeless. Availability and cost are the main drivers for my decision on what i use and i am sure it is for others. I guess the point here is run what you like. If you want come here to start a fight please go else where.
    Lean into 'er and let 'er buck!!!

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I use 777 a lot. I like it. I generally find There are always member who always sing The praise Of Black. There always talking NG /danger . mind your own business. The only One who Knows whats best for ME is Me
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad925 View Post
    Not sure why people come on here, when they clearly do not use or like subs, other than to piss somebody off! Let me make it clear that i would tamp a load of pig **** down the barrel if i thought it would work. I shoot everything. Sub smokeless black whatever is available. Black here is $50 lb. Pyrodex RS is $30 lb - Select is $36 lb Smokeless is $47 - $50 lb. There is enough of a reason for using sub not to mention the fact that you get more shots from a pound of pyrodex than a pound of Black. The last few years there has been a shortage of powder here in Canada. It forced a lot of people to try different powders and that was a good thing. Now i have loads worked up for several different smokeless powders. As far as muzzleloading and BP cartridge i never had a problem finding subs close by but black is a whole other story. And i find them to work in my 45-70 as good as the black and smokeless. Availability and cost are the main drivers for my decision on what i use and i am sure it is for others. I guess the point here is run what you like. If you want come here to start a fight please go else where.
    I see a lot of that stuff about how holy black being the only way. Unfortunately, when someone is looking for an answer to a question about using a substitute and the "keyboard commandos" kick in their 2 cents, it gets really confusing. It's good when someone gives their opinions but only if it is based on real hands on experience. We are already confused enough as it is! I have seen this topic abused even by some of the professional gun writers. I can see them having a slow month & the editors are on them for some material. With us people, we don't need to make things up. With all that being said, I have done some testing of Black MZ and found that it worked well in percussion guns of at least .32, .40, .45, .50, .54, and .58 sidelock rifles as well as .36 and .44/.45 cap & ball revolvers and percussion 12, 11 and 10 gauge shotguns. I have used it new from the store and as much as 2 years old in the factory bottle. It seems to work about the same as 2 F black only a lot less messy to clean. Done chrono testing in the rifles and pistols and dove hunting with the shotguns-not to mention clays with the shotgun. I' m about to venture into some cartridge loads in my .45 Old Army next spring and then maybe try some in a couple of cartridge rifles. Can't say anything about those yet as I haven't tried it.

    So, what I' m saying is that it's great to hear from some of the people here that have had experience but it doesn't help any by having to wade thru the baloney. Like the OP said, try to limit the posting to actual facts or at least good ideas of things to maybe try? OK, nuff said!

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I won't bash anyone for using whatever is available to them. I do prefer black powder myself, but realize that for some it is a problem to obtain. I have Pyrodex and AP powder in reserve.
    NRA Life
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  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    There are some of us that have been around this blackpowder stuff for decades. Some of us have used/tried about every sub out there and some that aren't available anymore. What I have found over 40 some odd years of messing with this stuff is that if a person can't for what ever reason get black powder, the only sub that works as well as black in cartridge guns is BH209. Smokeless is actually better than any of the subs.
    The problem comes if shooting any of the NRA sanctioned matches most of the subs, and smokeless aren't a "legal" option.
    In the end you have to determine what best suits your needs and go with it. But don't let your nose get bent out of joint if someone offers an opinion that doesn't fall in line with yours.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have worked up several smokeless loads for my .577 Snider. Never tried BP and probably never will.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    In the end you have to determine what best suits your needs and go with it. But don't let your nose get bent out of joint if someone offers an opinion that doesn't fall in line with yours.
    Amen.....

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I really Don't Know way they Call It " Holy'. It's dirty, Corrosive, Messy and just Plain Filthy. If smokeless powder was invented sooner. shooters and Government would have dumped to sooner.
    Please sing the Praises In Church on Sundays
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by salpal48 View Post
    I really Don't Know way they Call It " Holy'. It's dirty, Corrosive, Messy and just Plain Filthy. If smokeless powder was invented sooner. shooters and Government would have dumped to sooner.
    Please sing the Praises In Church on Sundays
    Hah hah salpal! It's kind of like the tradition of eating Lutefisk is for the Scandahoovian folks. Only black is good stuff for flintlockers and is generally pretty reliable stuff to boot. Pretty smelly for folks to have to endure who ride back from the range in my car unless they are crazy shooting sorts like us. Even with all the hazmat fees etc., the prices at Grafs.com aren't too bad if you get together with a couple of friends and just order up a few pounds at a time. The turnaround time is pretty quick from those guys.

    I'm not a big fan of Pyrodex since early on, the Hodgdon folks told us it was a lot less harmful to barrels and even got rid of athlete's foot among other diseases of the mind and body while you were shooting it. I'd rather shoot black any day than that stuff-yet there are people who swear by it.

    I never used Blackhorn 209 but might give it a go someday. We can't use 209 primed muzzleloaders during any special weapons seasons here in Idaho, nor any closed action models of guns nor any jacketted sabots or any sabots under a certain % of bore diameter or anything other than loose powder so have steered clear of Blackhorn and other things. The 777 is pretty powerful stuff but I hear it doesn't age well?? I'm going to try some out that I bought a couple of years ago and check the velocity against what it was clocking back when I first opened it. Lots of fun projects for next summer!

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I'm One of Those ' Never Black " people. With this ,i will expect The Holy Black Powder shooter will Picket My home. and say It's just plain evil Not using it. I Know my dog will Run away, Frogs and Bugs will invade My Home. and the Cows won't give Milk.
    I interchange smokeless and subs with all My antique Cartridge Rifles and Pistols.. Not once has any of those evils surface or any other problems happened. I like and Use T7 . I have Tried Other Not that I did not Like them. But T7 seems to be more available than Most. I'm not opposed in Trying something New
    Sal
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master Walkingwolf's Avatar
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    Short, simple, people on the internet like to tell other people what, where, when, how, sometimes who. You see it in ammo discussions, carry discussions, gun discussions. It is sad that some that do it are old timers that should know better. Our society was founded on free choice, personal responsibility, and respect for your fellow man, or woman. It is forgotten on the internet, and occaisionally needs to be pointed out.

    Hey if it works for you, even if it's pig whatever, go for it! Learn not to seek validation, because some will give it, some will try to beat you down.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Yep,I see it all the time.....cant do that,cant do this.....need a manual...cant shoot without knowing a load...but my favorite is......do you have any qualifications.....from dimwits who have done a 3 day course that no one fails and all get a diploma...no one can work anything out for themselves....oops Ive said the wrong thing.....call the safety auditor,...where is the risk assessment report.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Kinda reminds me of the sig on a fellows posts on another site that I go to.
    Says"Don`t tell me that it can`t be done,when I`m doing it".
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
    Otto von Bismarck

  15. #15
    Boolit Master shredder's Avatar
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    No sub bashing here. I used Pyrodex RS and Select for 20+ years and brought home several truckloads of deer during that time. I can say with absolute certainty that it really works well. I also use the holy black now because it shoots well in my current front stuffer and I got a bunch on sale so I laid in a supply. I have a box of IMR white hots that shoot to the exact same spot as my black loads so that is really nice to have. All the subs have their place, and for sure we are so much richer today as muzzleloader shooters because of them. Far more choices than when I started. If one thing does not work out for you there is now many other choices to get you gun shooting.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check