Schmidt Rubin 1889 Bolt throw

[The Ozzman]

Howdy folks.

I have been doing alot of research on this rifle in terms of reloading and general history, there is plenty of info out there and I have no questions regarding loads.

I am wondering if anyone who has one could chime in on how the bolt is in terms of ease of pull (I understand it cocks on opening) and overall impressions on the bolt? I have read it is basically a rotary bolt operating on a camming action, rear locking etc.

I am looking into getting one sometime as they come up for sale here at auction occasionally. My research tells me they are well built, very accurate and cool rifles.

But for now I am curious on how you all feel about the bolt, and anything you may have done to help make it more pleasant and smooth etc? I ask here as I have been able to find very little on the bolt feel, other than videos in which it seems to be a reasonably manageable operation not requiring herculean hands to manipulate.

Your time is much appreciated, have an enjoyable evening.

Ozzman

[Dan Cash]

I can't comment on the 1889 rifle but I do have a 1911 and it is a fine rifle as long as the ammo is properly resized (reloads). The bolt operates smoothly and easily but does require a significant initial thrust on opening. This 1911 rifle has as nice a trigger pull as I have experienced on a military rifle and it shoots in a similar, impressive manner. The rear locking lugs make the action a bit springy but none the less, it is a powerful and robust weapon that will outshoot many modern commercial rifles.

[ascast]

ozzeman, I would caution you to check out bore size before purchase. I had an '89 and the groove diameter was around 0.303". It had the magazine that would drop down, but not detach for single shot use. We had a talk about this not long ago here. I think a few guys got cornfused with the Veterlis or something as they were talking about bullets of 0.326" or something. I have a couple 1911 and 0.308 or 9 was correct. That '89 was a lot smaller and was painful to shot with OTR 7.5 x55 jacketed factory loads.

[samari46]

The Swiss used a special grease to lubricate the internals on just about all of their bolt actioned rifles. Cannot remember what they called it but waffenfett or something similar. Maybe lubriplate grease or a moly grease would work out. very light application. Check out the Swiss rifles sub forum on gunboards.com and see if they have any info. Frank

[The Ozzman]

Thanks for the tips guys.

samari46; yeah I think it is waffenfett, I have been over on the swiss forum digging around.

Seems to be the best way to explain the bolt operation, hard initial thrust, but pretty smooth overall.

They seem like fine rifles and also interesting in that they belonged to a country that is neutral and also takes its defense seriously.

I am going to see if the mosin WW2 pouches will fit a couple of loaded stripper clips of 1889 Schmidt in them, would be a handy way to carry plenty of ammo if one was to buy several mosin pouches and make a belt of them. Swiss bandoliers seem a bit pricey at times and harder to get.

Cheerio

[enfield]

Bolt does take a little force to pull back initially but otherwise works quite nice. Biggest pain is the neck blowing out big enough for a 8mm bullet even though its a 30 ish.

[The Ozzman]

Thanks enfield.

I got the chance to handle an 1889 yesterday, very nice rifle and once you understand the bolt operation, you develop a technique to do it quite easily.

I will be doing as much reading as I can into the reloading, seems they can be a bit particular. But, thats half the fun!

Cheers
Ozz

[RedJackson]

The 1889 is a very different rifle than the later K31s. It should never be shot with K31 ammo or reloaded with dies for the K31.
RCBS dies are correct for this chamber. Hornady also makes dies for both chamberings.

go here: http://www.swissrifles.com

and here: https://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=141&

and here: http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com

All are good sites to join.

There is also lots of aftermarket items for these rifles. They are often upgraded to perform as well as anything made today.

http://swissproductsllc.com

http://www.lprgunsmith.com/K31_rifles.htm

http://mcguinnessstocks.com (cool videos)

[ukrifleman]

I have a K31 and 1889 and use Lee 7.5 Swiss dies for both with no issues.

I trim 7.5x55 PPU brass down with a Lee 7.5x54 MAS case trimmer.

Using a 7.5x54 case trimmer also give you the option of using the MAS F/C die.

I have found that when F/L sizing brass for the 1889 with Lee dies, the trick is to have a separate shell holder with .010 removed from the face, which allows the case shoulders to be bumped back just that bit more.

This method works for me with PPU brass.

As for grease, I have found that any automotive white grease works just fine.

Disclaimer
These methods work for me, use them at your own risk.

ukrifleman

[Stewbaby]

Couple of pics that show throat and resizing variations with these rifles. As stated, a K31 tailored die will not work for a earlier rifle. The ones I've tried wouldn't even chamber so not really a safety issue just inconvenient. I sort my brass by K31 and non-K31 and use a Redding on the K31 brass and a RCBS on the 1911, K11 brass. Typical book OAL are way to long for a K31...measure the OAL specific to your rifle and selected bullet profile.

[The Ozzman]

Thanks everybody, stewbaby; cheers for those pictures too man that helps.

I am beginning to understand how fine these 1889 (and later) rifles are, even compared to todays arms. Such a well made gun, the 1889 really blows me away. To think this was available in the 1890s!

Does anyone know if the stripper clips will fit into the Mosin ammo pouches? I can get the mosin ones for about $15 and can make an ammo rig, instead of paying much more for a swiss bandolier.

You have all provided great tips that will help me alot, along with reading on the swiss forums etc.

[Ray1946]

Ozzman; there is a technique. You "smartly" pull the bolt handle back about 1.1/2 -2. inches, this takes a little practice, but once you develop this move you no longer have the bolt flying back the full 4. 1/2 inches and its easy then to control the removal of your brass. By the way, these rifles(1889) have a groove diameter of .311-.313! Most people who measure these bores don't realize that the 1889's have a THREE GROOVE BARREL and when checking with a pair of calipers you are actually measuring from"groove to bore" and not the true groove diameter. The Swiss Rifle site explains all of this.............Ray

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I love my two 1889s dearly, but they aren't quite as modern and compact as the 1911, even. The 1911 (or the preceding 1896, now very rare when not updated to 1911 standard) can be used with any Swiss 7.5mm. ammunition, but the 1889 definitely shouldn't. That isn't to say it was instantaneous disintegration, for the Swiss did authorise its use in wartime emergency, probably anticipating a trickle of men falling out with inoperable rifles. It seems about as smooth as any other straight-pull rifle, though not silent, and certainly not inferior to the 1886 Mannlicher with its tilting locking-block. You will find a lot that is useful on www.swissrifles.com .

We have to understand that Switzerland was situated between very large and mistrusting empires. While they didn't look to have anything worth stealing, giving them the Belgium treatment would have given one of those empires a sudden advantage over its rivals. The Swiss, desperate to make the best of limited rifle-armed manpower, repeatedly went for innovations of which the best couldn't yet be made.

Colonel Schmidt slipped up badly in one respect. His design had inherited the locking lugs on a rotary collar, not itself a bad idea, from the turnbolt Vetterli. But the M1889 bolt sleeve is weakened by a large helical slot between thrust on the front of the rotating bolt sleeve, and the transference of this thrust to the receiver by locking lugs at its rear.



A Technical Commission identified the problem before adoption of the rifle, and asked him to move the lugs to the front of the sleeve. But Schmidt, who in Napoleon’s phrase drew a lot of water in Swiss arms circles, refused, saying it was unnecessary. I think a shallower engagement of the operating rod would have sufficed, permitting a useful pressure increase with the existing receiver by making the helical slot shallower, with the inside of the sleeve an uninterrupted cylinder. Only two minor parts need have been replaced. But that is an opinion for which nobody has shown any sign of paying me a living wage.



As early as 1892 it was decided that improvement was necessary, and a Major Vogelsang was charged with the remedial measures which resulted in the M1896 action, at no discernable disadvantage in manufacture or use. 1896 was also the year of Colonel Schmidt’s retirement. He had reached retirement age and had health issues, so although the replacement of 212,000 rifles is a big thing to a small nation, it would be wrong to imagine that this great firearms authority retired by firm invitation. Still, Major Vogelsang’s mark as inspector appears on my two M1889s, made in 1893 and 1896, and it is tempting to speculate on his thoughts at the time.

My drawing shows how the lugs were moved to the front of the sleeve as the Technical Commission had asked, so that the slotted section is no longer load-bearing. Two grooves on top of the receiver are differently placed, and it is marginally shorter than the M1889 action, but not significantly so.

The 7.5x53.5mm. GP90 cartridge for the 1889 cartridge has a head diameter of .486in. and cases loaded in dies made for the late rifles may be too tight in the lower body. The bore diameters of all the rifles are very similar, as follows:



This works very well with the nearly-modern K31 and Sturmgewehr rifle and jacketed bullets. But based on my own rifles and those of others, the 1889 has a neck diameter of .360in. The GP90 bullet, based on people dismantling and measuring them, is ..321 over its paper patch, outside the case neck., which suggests 8mm. or about .315in. of lead alloy, which a long, tapering throat was meant to swage down. It was a heel bullet, stepped down inside the neck, which I think was to avoid irregular finning at the rear edge of the bullet. The bullet had an iron cap, but I think this was for the penetration of barricade etc., and the modern shooter could do well without it.

This neck expansion worked rather well for the military, though not the reloader or those requiring extremes of accuracy. TF Fremantle, published in 1900, describes how Captain Otter of the Swiss army could start with 13 shots in magazine and chamber, and place 36 to 39 hits on a 1.8 meter target at 300 meters, in one minute. That is more than twice as many as it took to stay in the British infantry of 1914. At 200 yards he could put about 80% of ten to thirteen shots on a row of five kneeling-man silhouettes in twenty seconds. I don’t know whether he used the M1889 or the M1896, but it could only have been with the original paper-patched, iron-capped bullet. Still, two or three extra minutes of angle of dispersion were hardly here nor there in that kind of work.

They certainly didn't adopt an 1889 rifle and wait a year for an 1890 cartridge.i Fred Datig is capable of error in his books, for example incorrectly describing the diameter of the actual GP90 bullet as .307in. and its neck as .360in. This would require freakishly thick brass, hard to size and very unlike any of this cartridge’s friends and relations. But I think Datig accurately describes the model 1889 7.5x53, possibly never issued at all, as having a .320in. bullet and a .360in. neck – both, rather bizarrely, being over a single paper patch which covers bullet and neck. I think this bullet lacked the reduced heel.

The recreational shooter wants to do this, but doesn't want the bullet finning which probably killed it. One possibility would be a disc cut from 8mm aluminium rod. This material, little used commercially until the development of electrical smelting a couple of decades later, would fall away with the paper patch, as it doesn't solder under frictional heat.

[The Ozzman]

Thanks Ray, I will keep that in mind for future use, I will most likely be picking one of these up soon.

Ballistics in Scotland; thankyou for the informative post, very interesting. Incidentally you are an excellent writer with strong technique, my hat goes off to you.

If anyone does find out, I would be keen to know if the 1889 chargers will fit in the mosin pouches. If I am able to find out, I will post back here.

Ozz

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thank you for those kind words. You might be interested in sight for a rifle I was unwilling to modify in any way. The issue open sight is an extremely one, which can be knocked flat by blow and yet has simply returned to the lowest setting without the damage we so often see in tangent sights. But that setting is too high for most recreational or hunting use. I bought a new bolt plug from Numrich (who are pretty good on Swiss parts) and silver soldered a small Marble-Goss receiver sight in place. That part isn't serial numbered, but I still have the one which came with the rifle.




The story of the Swiss bolt-action rifles can be seen as the story of Vetterli's lengthening locking-sleeve. In the Vetterli it is like a bolt shroud and lever. In the Schmidt-Rubins it is longer, and moves inside the receiver. In the K31, which arguably isn't a Schmidt or Rubin rifle at all, it is the entire bolt body.

This rifle is in excellent condition, but one bolt knob has been gnawed by a mouse of unknown nationality. You have to sympathise with the desperate. Replacements have been available through eBay and Swissrifles, but they look like plastic instead of the original foxy-red hard rubber, aka vulcanite. I have some black vulcanite smoking pipe stems which could be used to turn some, and red vulcanite rod can be obtained in Germany, but only at a rather stiff price for a large minimum order. I'm dithering between black and casting them from a mixture of epoxy and fine red iron oxide powder, which I believe is what was used in vulcanite.

[Fly]

I love mine, it is like everything the Swiss make (supervene) !

Fly

[Black Beard]

There is an internet rumour that all 1889 rifles are the same .308-.310 groove diameter and anyone who says different doesn't know how to measure groove to groove. This is not so. I have one from the first year's production that is about .304 groove to groove and .297 land to land. The later rifles I have are bigger. This early rifle has seen a lot of use around the bayonet lug.
Please check your rifle- a 00 buck can be tapped in to the bore and pushed out with a cleaning rod. If it comes out .304 groove to land then .308 bullets will fit. If it is nearer .300 groove to land then investigate further.

[Bob S]

You need a 120 degree vee-anvil micrometer to accurately measure slugs for a 3-groove barrel. All of my 1889's are .310 and up.

Respectfully,
Bob S.