Is my rifle a candidate?

[Wolfmanjack]

I have a rem700 ml 50cal. I got it many years ago when I was a teen and had only experience with cleaning cf rifles. I cleaned the 700ml the same way shooting pyrodex. Needless to say I experienced some rusting and pitting. The lands are pretty good with some minor pitting in the grooves. I get decent accuracy now with pyrodex rs, 1.5" hundred yard groups with sabot and cast boolit. My question is: does the bore have to be pristine to paper patch or is a mildly neglected bore ok? I don't want to buy a mold if I will be wasting my time.

[nagantguy]

In my limited and humble understanding a slightly pitted,rough or oversized or shot out bore is the point in paper patching

[Wolfmanjack]

I didn't know if the rough bore would rip the paper?

[country gent]

You may need to experiment with paper used as to thickness, make up or contents, and bullet dia. 2 wraps of paper and bullet dia should be bore dia or possibly + .001 over. Paper thickness X 4 and bullet dia gives a very close Idea of wrapped sizes. One other thing is paper will polish smooth the barrel some what due to papers abrasiveness. I would start with a paper that's 25% or more cotton fiber as it is a tougher paper. Seth Cole drafting paper is also good and Buffalo Arms has Onion paper for patching.

[Wolfmanjack]

Another question, can you shoot paper patch bullets in a warm/hot muzzleloader barrel? Accuracy suffers with my saboted rounds if the barrel doesn't fully cool off. I dislike the 10minute wait between shots very much.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I have only two suggestions about your question. First is to try some patched boolets thru your rifle. Patches will, to an extent, do some smoothing of a rough bore. My second suggestion is, if you already haven`t done it, is to do a conversion to using 209 shotshell primers ignition system. I did this conversion on mine and never regretted it.Robert

[martinibelgian]

Fot those stating that the paper patch will polish the bore, my experience with rough bores has been that a smooth bore is a requirement for PP - a rough bore will tend to strip/shred the patch, and you don't want to end there - mining lead in a barrel...

[54bore]

I have a rem700 ml 50cal. I got it many years ago when I was a teen and had only experience with cleaning cf rifles. I cleaned the 700ml the same way shooting pyrodex. Needless to say I experienced some rusting and pitting. The lands are pretty good with some minor pitting in the grooves. I get decent accuracy now with pyrodex rs, 1.5" hundred yard groups with sabot and cast boolit. My question is: does the bore have to be pristine to paper patch or is a mildly neglected bore ok? I don't want to buy a mold if I will be wasting my time.

I would get a .499 sizing die, wrap your bullets with 2 wraps of 9# onion skin paper and send them through the .499 die, Buffalo Arms sells correct paper patch bullets, you are looking for .492, i would go with the 450-500 grain bullets. My reason for pushing them through the sizer is to slightly tighten the paper up. But With a .492 bullet it would not be needed. I had custom molds made for my Muzzleloaders, i like 3-4, example being my 45 cal bullets are .443, my .50 Cal bullets drop from the mold at .494, my .54 Cal bullets drop at .533, i size 1 thou under bore, again i am not sizing the bullet, it drops from the mold undersize, i wrap up with paper, then push them through a sizing die 1 thou under bore, just tightens the paper up nicely. You need to use a good over powder wad, like Vegetable fibre .060 Thou, you want to create a good solid gas seal behind the bullet.

my sizing dies are Lee push through style .449 for .45 Cal, .499 for .50 Cal, and .539 for .54 Cal

[Wolfmanjack]

I had read some of idahoron's reports and am trying to replicate his method. I got my Lee s&w 500 mold yesterday. I also got a Lee .501 sizer. I casted a few bullets yesterday and wrapped with tracing paper. I sized them to .501 and pushed them down the bore. They slide down snug without too much force. I removed the breach plug and the paper was all intact when it came through. A couple of times the sizer would tear the paper but that seemed to be related to my patching technique. I got that ironed out with practice. I can't wait till the fields dry so I can go try em out. Can I shoot these paper patch bullets in a warm or hot barrel.

[54bore]

I had read some of idahoron's reports and am trying to replicate his method. I got my Lee s&w 500 mold yesterday. I also got a Lee .501 sizer. I casted a few bullets yesterday and wrapped with tracing paper. I sized them to .501 and pushed them down the bore. They slide down snug without too much force. I removed the breach plug and the paper was all intact when it came through. A couple of times the sizer would tear the paper but that seemed to be related to my patching technique. I got that ironed out with practice. I can't wait till the fields dry so I can go try em out. Can I shoot these paper patch bullets in a warm or hot barrel.

Warm, Hot barrel won't make any difference, be kinda tough to get a Muzzleloader very hot though? You will need to swab between shots or the fouling will compromise the paper, I use a 50/50 solution of blue windex (the one that says ammonia) and 91% isopropyl alcohol, Shoot away! And good luck!

[Wolfmanjack]

The barrel temperature seems to play havoc on saboted bullets. In order to maintain accuracy I am having to wait about 8-10 minutes between shots. I don't like the wait so I was hoping it wasn't a factor with paper patch.

[BrentD]

WMJ, if a warm barrel is an issue, I suspect your rifle is the problem, specifically they way it was improperly barreled. But that said, I shoot 30 shots in an hour and a half or 20 shots in an hour and that's only because I can't shoot faster. The rifle, properly built, shoots well enough to repeatedly win matches out to 1000 yds. Barrel temperature in a muzzleloader is simply not an issue, or your rifle is screwed... (been there done that).

[Wolfmanjack]

Wow, the guys on modernmuzzleloader site gospel teaching is that heat is the enemy of plastic sabots. I listened to their advise and let the barrel cool all the way down and shoot 1.5" groups at 100yds with pyrodex rs and cast saboted bullets. If the barrel is warm to the touch then the groups open up to 3-4". Hell those guys use aluminum rods cooled in ice water to insert into their muzzleloader barrels after a shot to speed cooling! There must be something to it because I have witnessed this heat send accuracy right down the crapper. This is with plastic sabots.

[BrentD]

Hell, I don't know squat about plastic sabots except for killing a deer or two with them. They suck basically.

I shoot competitively with muzzleloaders out to 1000 yds. I don't really care for modern inlines and don't know much about them. I do know you cannot win anything with pyrodex, even where legal. Real BP is what works if you are serious about accuracy at long range. You should be able to hold a minute of angle for 10 shots as far out as you can read the wind adequately.

Chances are it's your rifle is poorly barreled, not the sabots. I have had this happen to me, with a cartridge rifle. If yours is a production rifle (or even if not), that is likely an issue that real BP and paper patches cannot solve.

What are the land and groove diameters of your barrel (and twist for that matter)?

[Wolfmanjack]

It's an inline Remington 700ml built on the 700 action. It is supposed to be a surprisingly accurate muzzleloader. The trigger on my gun is not great and I can shoot 1.5 " groups at 100 yds. The twist is 1in 28". I'm not a long range shooter just a hunter. I have really enjoyed making my own black powder and casting my own bullets. I like to tinker and figured paper patching would be a new thing to learn.

[BrentD]

You can definitely do it. Absolutely no doubt. But what you need are some accurate barrel dimensions. Depending on your paper, and your groove depth, you might want something like a bullet that casts about 0.007" smaller than tour land diameter. You will add two wraps of paper to get something that slides nicely down your bore, but NOT a free fall. Put a 0.060" thick fiber or LDPE wad under the bullet. Seat just barely firmly on a good dose of Swiss 1.5fg powder (I'm impressed you've made your own, but try this first).

If I knew your bore dimensions, I might suggest something slightly different.

Do you have the ability and access to a metal lathe?

[Wolfmanjack]

No lathe. Barrel is .501 as best as I can measure. Don't know groove depth. Lee mold drops a .501 boolit. 2 wraps of paper and size through .501 Lee push through sizer. Boolit goes downbarrel nice and snug without tearing the patch. I have no idea what will happen to the patch when it's fired but I will let you know. Tomorrow afternoon I will be catching speckled trout after work in the Gulf of Mexico. If we don't get any rain then I will be able to shoot Friday evening.

[Wolfmanjack]

No lathe. Barrel is .501 as best as I can measure. Don't know groove depth. Lee mold drops a .501 boolit. 2 wraps of paper and size through .501 Lee push through sizer. Boolit goes downbarrel nice and snug without tearing the patch. I have no idea what will happen to the patch when it's fired but I will let you know. Tomorrow afternoon I will be catching speckled trout after work in the Gulf of Mexico. If we don't get any rain then I will be able to shoot Friday evening.

[BrentD]

Okay, you have it going about right for starters. Sounds like your bullet is a nice fit. How long is the bullet? 28" twist is probably pretty decent for a .50 cal. Very slow for the .45s that I prefer.

What I don't know now is how deep your grooves are. Most muzzleloaders are made with very deep grooves. This presents a problem if there is gas blow-by before the bullet bumps up to fill the grooves. The gas will burn through the paper, then melt the lead and solder it to your barrel, i.e., leading. SO, COLLECT SOME PATCHES after firing. I'll try to find some pictures of what good and, esp, what bad patches look like. They need to be sliced, no burned, not torn.

Second, USE A WAD! This is important. I like 0.060" thick. You can probably find some on Buffaloarms.com. Fiber (John Walters) or LDPE (King) are good.

Last, expect to wipe between shots - for now. I know you won't want to do this when hunting but bear with me for now. One or two damp (water) patches and then a dry.

[BrentD]

Enlarge this if you can. It is what you DO NOT want to see. The patch has been burned through where the bullet passes over the grooves. This, or anything similar (generally, the pieces will be smaller), is bad news.