I need some help and perhaps guidance

[opos]

Well I felt at 80 I'd seen and heard about all and lived most of the things that really upset me but this past week has changed my feelings and let me know I'm still "being tested" in life.

This may seem terribly small in the face of the life threatening difficulties many are facing (in a way including my Wife)

Background. Many long years as a sober member of AA (36 years)..the past has been dealt with and family, close friends, etc accept and love the old guy. Life is generally good. I have a strong faith though not one of the "major" faith's that has seen me well since my life changed....with his help...in 1981.

I am like many men I've spoken with as well as my Dad when he was alive...in that I don't have a large group of "very close friends"....I have friends from AA, from the neighborhood, from old business days and so on but I'm talking about the true and loyal frined that can be trusted in about any situation and is always available to provide whatever comfort and strength a man might need. I have had several of those kinds of frineds in my life over the years...some have died due to age or disease....some have moved away and over the years the contact might be a couple of calls a year, and most recently I have had 3 men in my life that I felt were in this catagory and in conversations over he years was made to feel they had similar outlooks.

One of the me recently passed away and I have been dealing with that and while I miss him a great deal...his suffering has ended and his life had touched many men's lives in a very positive way so that is about any of us can ask.

Now to man #2. He lives near by and is about 10 years my junior..he, like me is a good solid member of AA and does what he is able with some physical limitations to be helpful to others. Got a nice family, a member in good standing in a major church and has what I would call a good faith. We often have talked about things that close friends can feel comfortable talking about..perhaps things that are not for "public consumption" but also not cynical or mean spirited things...example:

My Wife has a rental house that was left to her when her Mom died...it's hers..it's in her name...she manages it with only limited help and then only when she asks for some help..her renters are a nice younger family that are a bit on the "just getting by" life style but they do pay their rent on time and keep the place up very well...she is well satisfied as are they...because she really does no need to squeeze every last cent out of th house her rental to them is about $200 a month below the market but in return the man does nice things around the place without being asked that more than make up for any few hundred dollars.

Turns out the renter is a member of AA and my friend (#2) is his sponsor (close advisor) and he has always been very concerned that his sponsee and family are good and solid with my wife's rental program...she has nicely asked my friend to just let her and her renter handle their affairs and to please confine his discussions to friend ship, AA, and dune riding in the East County. All has been fine for the last 3 years or so. The renter had a serious accident about 3 months ago and has been laid up but his disability and his wife doubling up on her job kept them current on their rent.

We are facing California changes to rental tax laws that can be fairly involved and major....I happened to discuss them in a very general way with my frined (who also has a couple of rentals..in another state) and asked what that state appears to be getting ready to do, etc...he began to push wanting to know if my Wife planned to "raise Rons rent"...I told him I had no idea and even if I did I'd certainly not discuss my Wife's business with her renter...and suggested that he not discuss or talk about this at all with his sponsee. But of course he couldn' wait to stir the pot.

He went to the renter..who is really down after struggling to make ends meet after he wreck and said "I think MXXX (my wife) is going to hit you with a rent increase. The renter fell apart..he and his wife and little girl called us and came to our home and were in tears..they told her what they had been told...my Wife blew sky high...assured them they were fine and no renal increase was even being though of. They quieted down...then my Wife laid into me (nicely but firmly) and said she did not want my friend and I in any conversations that could be construed as about here house or business. I went to my friends house and he was agressive and stand offish about having done anyting...might have been dishonest.

I told him that what I look for in a close friend is loyalty and trustworthiness and that I felt he had violated that and owed my Wife an apology and also she needed assurance that her rental and her business was off limits to him..he backed away and basicaly said he was "responsibile" for Ron (renter) which of course he is not unless he has become a martyr.

I cannot go forward being a close friend withsomeone that breaks a trust or confidence...then lies about it..and then just blows it off.

So now I'm down to frined #3

He is a man my age and has been my AA sponsor for over 30 years...we have grown up in sobriety together...seen a great deal of good and bad...been helpful and hurtful from time to time and dealth with the issues of a close friendship between 2 men that have some ego problems...be that all as it may we have been very close for a very long time.

He recently got a new phone set up...it is some sort of internet phone and frankly is a piece of junk for the folks trying to hear and understand what is being said....I can understand those kinds of things if money is tight but this man is a multi millionaire that just hates anythng connected with utility companies or the Government.

I'm a bit hard of hearing and said why didn't we talk when he was off the freeway where there was less bakground noise...he hung up and we talked about a hour later...my reason for calling was to try and discuss the loss of friend #2 and to try and defuse some resentments I was holding....insead of listening and offering some "advice" he said "you have no idea how to have a friend"...he said "I've had to make exceptions for you all along just to be your frined"...I asked what he meant and he dug up a situation from over 10 years ago when he had taken his big boat and gone to Puerto Vallarta mexico for the summer...he asked me to look after his home which I was glad to do..big million dollar home. There were some issues with his neighbors and I called him frequently until we could get a lawyer involved and get it straightened out....seemed like it was all over and forgotton back a decade ago...yesterday he asked if I recalled that time...I did..he said "I showed true friendship by taking your calls when I did not have Mexican phone service and my bill ended up almost $1200 for the month...I didn't say anything and paid the bill to keep our friendship" So he became a Martyr,10 years ago and put a price on our f riendship of a $1200 bill when a simple comment would have ended any phone calls I was making...but no..he's been carrying this "projectile" for all these years waiting for a "teaching opportunity"...he has often "lectured about things" or become a " teacher" when involved in a discussion...when a lesson was not the point...just conversation. When I confroned him about what he had said and how he had quantified our 30 year friendship into a $1200 dollar amount and how that sounded..he basically said "move on and don't bother me"...out of the blue.....then about an hour later he called to complain about the local Jeep dealership and how they were screwing him on one of his cars...I was still mad and just told him I didn' care and would talk to him down the road and hung up...he called back and was really rude and I simply hung up.

So that's my dilema..3 friends...close trusted friends...in the past few years...one died...one broke his trust and loyalty and "threatened" to continue and the 3rd sprung some way back thing that he's been carrying and resenting for a decade...so this morning I'm doing this rather than meeting one of the guys at a meeting or for coffee...

I'm hurt...I'm confused and I'm mad...been talking to God and looking for acceptance...I do accept things just as they are but that does not mean I have to approve....

Talk to me about friendships...not acquaintences but true friendships that may have gone south over the years..

Thanks

[Smoke4320]

People will let you down.
All I can say is move on and try your best to get over it.
Life is too short

[OS OK]

I believe that we put too much emphasis on the word 'friend'...we have high aspirations for someone in that category yet we use the term pretty loosely. They are, for the majority...'acquaintances'...nothing more.
You may conduct yourself under the guidelines of 'your definition' of friendship and never cross any lines but you cannot expect others to operate the way you do...we are all individuals and were 'created' that way..
When confronted, we all have our pride and personal justifications for our actions and become defensive, apologetic or submissive or whatever...I dunnoh, there are a hundred reasons someone else acts different than you or me. Where one will apologize the other will baulk...that's people, like them or leave them alone, it is simple like that.
My Dad always said that when you die..."if you have one friend for each finger on one hand, that you were a very fortunate man." Period, no exceptions.
I think the reason most people hang with other people is that they 'feed off each other' in 'mutually dependent' ways. One sorta supports the other and vise versa...as long as that works, well, you have a 'working friendship'...nothing more, just a 'dependency relationship' upon one another.
It works, it is civil but there is not always a balance of 'tit for tat'...if it doesn't matter to the one that is giving more, then the relationship is good to go. BUT...if the one who thinks he is giving more is a 'record keeper' and a bit of a rich titewad like your friend...well, he will come to a point to where your relationship is costing him too much, monitarily or emotionally or '?'. Then out comes the resent for the extra burden on him...as if you put it there. Though when the relationship began decades ago, he accepted that fact.
I dunnoh...there are a thousand scenarios in every situation...there is another side to all these stories you tell...and don't forget that little valid point.

In AA you are in a group of diseased individuals who will never recover fully...only live from day to day with success for the day or a falling back, a failure...then the sponsor comes running to help. This is 'service to others' in an extreme sort of way. It works though and you can't argue with AA's success. Enough about AA.

In the 'forgiveness' business, where your friend seems to be lacking...they need to operate by the rules that Christ our Savior operated by...'When forgiving someone, it is as if it never happened, that instance is as far from memory as the east is from the west, it is never brought back up and thrown in another's face and it stays forgiven, 'forever',...otherwise you are not 'forgiving' and only 'pardoning' each other for the time being.

Too, as we get older some of us change in behavior...we may not notice it because we are good at 'BS'ing ourselves' into thinking that we are in fact as 'golden' as our own opinion of self!

A little introspect and a whole lot of honesty with self goes a very long way.

Well, there's my 2 cents in a cursory sort of way...but there it is.

charlie

[jmort]

Most people would be fortunate to have a couple three true friends in a lifetime. A lot of acquaintances, yes. Two of these three you describe are long-time aquaintnces. Friendship is caring and sharing intimacies in complete trust. I agree that too often friendship is confused with aquaintance. But, I can meet a total stranger and really enjoy spending time with them. Becomming aquainted with them. I figure I have a few billion aquaintances on this planet. I figure I have one friend right now.

[OS OK]

Friends are pretty easily identified...

"They are always there when the 'chips' are down, always there when a celebration is in order too...always and forever...costs or no costs, early of the morning or in the middle if the night...they will always support, care, lend, help, sooth your wounds or carry your load...they will correct you and admonish you too. Friendship is LOVE. If you can't go the full relationship, then you are the one lacking in friendship."

[DCP]

We choose the ones we allow to hurt us!

Everyone will hurt you

70x7

[opos]

Thanks for all the comments and input...I've looked them all over with interest and several of the comments are right on target with what I think I need to do. One of the things that comes to mind is that when you reach the "elder years" you tend to rely on other's a bit more and frankly being from the generaton I'm from and being raised by a family where there were strong values placed on loyalty and trust ..I think sometimes I have to adjust my thinking to the more "present" way of doing things..much of what occurs is with the immense flow of information I think people just pass information around ..often without thinking of the impact their actions can have..

Best way to not have things passed on if it is that important is to not discuss them at all...that way things don't get in a mess....I talk too much and always have...got a cousin that I grew up with....we were like brothers...he used to get really upset because I couldn't resist telling things that perhaps shouldn't have been told.

The comment about AA members perhaps being flawed is certainly true..but I don't much think any "group" of people doesn't have flawed people as members...Since I don't drink or get involved in the life style that many folks follow...I choose to be among people that don't drink or do drugs...just my way of living now. I was a member for much of my earlier life in a religion that has a large membership...when I was 11 the Clergy had some issues with alter boys..while I was not a direct victim I saw it happening and it made me realize that the most unlikely person can be very sick and flawed.

So I got a direction to follow and it's a matter of breaking some old habits...thanks again

opos

[Blackwater]

Sounds like Friend #2 was simply in a position of conflicting obligations, and he chose badly, and now, is probably a bit ashamed of his choice, and pretty conflicted internally. That's most likely why he's reacted the way he has. Conflict can make a man do things he otherwise probably wouldn't.

#3 seems like he was just in foul mood when he called, and .... even among friends, that can cause rifts.

And as to the renters, those who are struggling are always afraid the wolf is at the front door, and awaiting a chance to turn their whole lives upside down.

All involve conflict in some manner, and they've dealt with it in less than optimum ways.

Therefore, before I'd cast aside this kind of friendships and trust, I think I'd be strongly inclined to TRY to maintain the friendships, AFTER letting them know that you were an agrieved party to all this too. Friends - the REAL kind - are few and very far between, and thus, NOT the kind of asset we want or need to cast off lightly. It's hard to forgive. Really hard when it's a real friend who's agrieved you. But I still think Christ gave us good advice, and better than you'll get anywhere else. And He said we're to forgive those who agrieve us.

And yeah, I DO in fact realize how hard that is to do sometimes, but again, Christ made no allowance for that. He just said we're to understand and forgive. Much of forgiveness is made easier when we look at the occurances and words from THEIR point of view, and keep in mind the emotions of that moment when they erred, and agrieved us.

I've had some experience with a rift between friends before, and yes, it's costly either way you go in reacting to it. But with forgiveness, you at least have a chance of better understanding down the line from where you're at now. God forgae us everything, and yet, we still have trouble forgiving a slight or a moment's inconsideration. He laid down his very life for us and our salvation, though he was sinless, and the Son of God. When we compare our situations to that .... well, our situation seems SO much smaller! This can help lead us to a stance of forgiveness.

Some friends aren't so similarly inclined, though, and continue to insist they're right and you're wrong. That's the time to disengage, and leave them alone for a while. Let them miss the friendship you had for a while, and their tempers cool off, and maybe both of you might learn something new and better in the end? Many questions that plague us most are NOT best answered in an instant, but need to be borne, and mulled over repeatedly for a time, before we can see through the emotions of the moment in which they occurred.

This isn't easy. Nor pleasant. Nor something that comes naturally to us. We naturally follow our emotions, and disappointment with a friend is one of the most intense and effecting of our emotions. But when not entirely sure what to do, or when you're conflicted about what to do or how to handle it, the best thing to do is wait, if at all possible, and see what the passage of a little time can do for the situation. There's no guarantee time will solve your problems or conflicts, but it sure does change one's perspective after a while.

I think I'd just disengage for a while and wait a month or two, and re-engage at that time and see if there's any improvement in the attitude or situation. Even taking Christ's best advice is no guarantee you'll get what you want, but it sure beats any other advice I know of. Loss is inevitable in life, including the loss of friends. But one needs to preserve all those he can, or has at least a chance of preserving, I think.

That's just my opinion, and is maybe worth exactly what you paid for it, but .... that's what I'd advise, at least. True friends are rare, and even they err sometimes. This, to me, warrants some forgiveness. We're all sinners, and have come FAR short of the Glory of God. But true friends are those who've proven their worth to us on many occasions. That, to me, entitles them to a little extra consideration whenever a conflict occurs. Even when it's hard to do that. FWIW?

[flyingrhino]

The following from the Urban Dictionary pretty much defines friend for me. There are only 2 people in my life that fill the bill. There are many others that I might call friends but are really just close acquaintances.

A friend is someone you love and who loves you, someone you respect and who respects you, someone whom you trust and who trusts you. A friend is honest and makes you want to be honest, too. A friend is loyal.

A friend is someone who is happy to spend time with you doing absolutely nothing at all; someone who doesn't mind driving you on stupid errands, who will get up at midnight just because you want to go on an adventure, and who doesn’t have to talk to communicate with you.

A friend is someone who not only doesn't care if you're ugly or boring, but doesn't even think about it; someone who forgives you no matter what you do, and someone who tries to help you even when they don't know how. A friend is someone who tells you if you're being stupid, but who doesn't make you feel stupid.

A friend is someone who would sacrifice their life and happiness for you. A friend is someone who will come with you when you have to do boring things like watch bad recitals, go to stuffy parties, or wait in boring lobbies. You don't even think about who's talking or who's listening in a conversation with a friend.

A friend is someone for whom you're willing to change your opinions. A friend is someone you look forward to seeing and who looks forward to seeing you: someone you like so much, it doesn't matter if you share interests or traits. A friend is someone you like so much, you start to like the things they like.

A friend is a partner, not a leader or a follower.
The word "friend" comes from Old English "frēond", which is actually the present participle of "frēogan", which means "to love" and "to honor".