ADvertise hereMidSouth Shooters SupplyRotoMetals2Inline Fabrication
Titan ReloadingLee PrecisionGraf & SonsStainLess Steel Media

Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 179

Thread: the magnum issue here and hunting ethics

  1. #121
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    windber, pa
    Posts
    1,320
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyJohn View Post
    Tdoyka, Love your Mark Twain quote...so fitting these days.
    Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable. Mark Twain

  2. #122
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Almont, ND
    Posts
    51
    Much like everything I believe magnums have their place. For instance, I wanted a 45 colt. Not just any 45 colt, I wanted a double action and a strong one at that (having caught a bit of a bug from my uncle and his old Vaquero). I researched as much as I could but couldn't quite find what I wanted until I stumbled into Kimble's guns up here in Linton. He had a minimally used Ruger Super Redhawk in 454 Casull. It fit my hand really well, must have had the trigger polished, was a six shot double action... Any-hoo, I picked it up. I didn't really want something that powerful (Perry Kimble asked me why in the hell I wanted it, he almost didn't want to sell it because he thought it was too much power) but after looking up load data and bullet choices for it I thought it was the perfect fit because I have a completely overbuilt gun, I mean seriously overbuilt, it can handle what I call "sh!t-yer-pants" loads better than I can handle them but I can also shoot standard loads in 45 colt through it. I have no need to shoot full power 454 loads but should the need ever arise for such power I know I can, You can always tame down a magnum cartridge but you can't (safely) hot rod a standard pressure cartridge. I always have the option whether I use it or not, But I know i'm always safe it a standard load. Bottom line I know the gun will never fail using common-sense loads.

    The same could be applied to hunting rifles. Don't get me wrong i'm not saying "don't utilize your cartridge to it's full potential" I'm just saying sometimes going with an 'overbuilt' cartridge or platform and toning it down has its benefits.

    One has to look at what the cartridge was designed/intended for also. One of the biggest things that comes to mind is the 300 blackout argument. Some love it, some hate it. It was originally intended (well, the whisper was) as a suppressed, short range, subsonic, with a heavy bullet mainly for headshots when appropriate so expansion didn't matter. Guys get all bent out of shape because of the 'lack' of velocity you can/can't achieve with this cartridge and try to compare it to a 308win. I was ringing steel at 300yds with my blackout when my friend said "yeah but it's not going to have any power at that range" I told him to go stand at 300yds and let me shoot him then. He declined. Apparently a 230gr bullet at ~800fps doesn't have any power but it's still more than he would want to get hit with... go figure. You gotta ask yourself, if someone was shooting at me with [insert random cartridge/velocity/bullet weight here] would I be afraid or would I just shrug it off...

    I chose the blackout for three reasons: 1. I can cast for it. 2. I can make brass from another cheap/abundant source 3. efficiency, i'm using 9.7gr of powder and still cycling an AR platform. None of those reasons have anything to do with velocity. As many of you have said, shot placement is key. I can wait for a good shot and place it where it needs to go.

    I reload for a guy who has two 300RUM's. I admit it is an impressive round, I worked a load that pushes a 200gr nosler accubond ~3150fps and shoots cloverleaves at 200yds. After loading for him for about a year he told me how impressed he was with the ammo I made for him, "my son shot a buck at 750 yards and I know the rounds are accurate because he put a follow up shot into it at just over 760 yards and hit it again." ... I almost told him I wasn't going to load for him anymore. That was never the intent I had when working that load, he said he liked that round because within 200yds it was flat and would drop anything in its track, he never mentioned taking what I would call a reckless shot. Not to mention one that warrants a follow up. Not the cartridges fault though.

    The only real problem, if you can call it that, I have with magnums is efficiency related. Why shoot a 300RUM that pushes a 180gr bullet at 3300fps when the proper platform and component selection will allow you to push the same bullet at 2900fps in a 30-06 and use 60% the amount of powder? Seems like a lot of extra powder for not a whole lot of useful gain, that's what a 15%gain in velocity for 50% more powder? Especially when a 180gr bullet at 2900fps is "more than plenty".

    Again, don't get me wrong, there may be a time and place where an extra 3-400fps is absolutely needed. A quality 300RUM platform downloaded to 30-06 levels, although not efficient enough for my liking, isn't a horrible idea. The brass is very strong, with toned down loads it's pleasant to shoot and very easy on the gun and you always have to option of fully utilizing it.

    There will always be a search for the "bigger and better" and it's human nature. I just think about the cartridges of the mid to late 1800's, especially the 38spl and 45 colt. At the time both were considered powerful and more than capable of killing two and four legged creatures yet now they seem to be in the "pipsqueak" category. I myself still trust my life to both of them. Are there better options out there? damn right there are. Does that mean they're underpowered and obsolete? Not by a long shot.

    When looking for a self defense pistol, most salesman seem to steer away from snub 38spl revolvers because of the lack of velocity and "stopping power". If it did just fine 100+ years ago and in several wars what's the problem? I dare you to tell any old-timer that people are tougher than nowadays than they used to be.

  3. #123
    Boolit Master woodbutcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    LaFollette Tn
    Posts
    782
    Hi metroxfi.Great post.Thanks.Lots of common sense contained.Just like flying a plane.60 to 75% power settings will get you there just fine,and use less fuel doing so.And less wear and tear on the engine.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
    Otto von Bismarck

  4. #124
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,308
    Yeah, but choppers are a different story. They run 90-100% all the time, kinda like magnumbs.

    And they are a whole lot more fun. Especially when they're upside down.
    I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.

  5. #125
    Boolit Master woodbutcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    LaFollette Tn
    Posts
    782
    Ohhhhhhhhhhh.You mean those dodads that were described as a "collection of spare parts flying in close formation"by one of the first pilots to see them?
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
    Otto von Bismarck

  6. #126
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,308
    I beg your pardon, helicopters don't fly, they beat the air into submission.
    I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.

  7. #127
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    26
    Reminds me of a comment I once read about how the Gould cast boolit for the 45-70 was junk because if you shot it at 1900 or 2000 feet per second, the nose blew off. I've hunted with and killed with sleepy moving "pumpkin balls" and you would think the hammer of God swung down and hit them. Good post. If anyone is interested, an old article called "Punkin Rolling" by Keith is interesting and only a couple of pages long.

  8. #128
    Boolit Master
    Minerat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Jefferson County, CO
    Posts
    389
    If I have my choice between a 300 wby at 3200 fps or a 54 cal PRB at 1400 fps for a 300 lbs cow elk. I'll take the Weatherby, I have had them take a 180 gr round at 50 yards and still run a 100 yds back into the dog hair timber before expiring with an exploded heart. Yes, I have a thing for magnum rifles running on the red line, but I also have the 54 TC Hawkins for deer shootin'.
    Steve,

    Life Member NRA
    Member: Clear Creek County Sportsman Association


    Kilo Charlie zero Golf Papa Tango

  9. #129
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Almont, ND
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by woodbutcher View Post
    Hi metroxfi.Great post.Thanks.Lots of common sense contained.Just like flying a plane.60 to 75% power settings will get you there just fine,and use less fuel doing so.And less wear and tear on the engine.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    That's exactly what I was getting at! Keeping things toned down but always having the option of cranking up the heat with something as simple as advancing a cylinder or loading in a new shell. My Brother has a souped up Acura that redlines at something stupid (I want to say 8700 RPM)... That doesn't mean he needs to have it wound up that high all the time but if the occasion calls for it then let 'er buck.

    There's a peak efficiency point for almost everything. In terms of ammunition you can take my example of the 300RUM and the 30-06, 50% more powder for 15% more velocity. Lets transfer that to vehicles, would you increase your fuel consumption by 50% for 15% more horsepower? Depending on what you use your vehicle for it may be perfectly appropriate to do so but for most applications there are better ways to gain the extra power. I'd much rather load for (and shoot) a properly worked '06 than a RUM, and further I'd rather load for and shoot a 308 than an '06. Obviously there are many other advantages of one versus another but, if you can get to within 1-150fps of a 30-06 AND get more rounds out of a pound i'm all for it. On the other end of things though, how much does the impact gain from the increased velocity? I understand that in the impact energy equation you square the velocity so even a slight increase ends up being significant, but at the end of the day it's just numbers, does it truly translate to the real world? In John Linebaugh's penetration test he found that penetration depth capped and didn't increase much past 1,400fps. It does increase, but not as significantly (say 1000fps-1400fps would have more gain than 1400-1800fps). Again, there is a gain to be had but you have to work much harder to get it. So in the end is burning up more powder (and your barrel) worth it? I myself do prefer magnums for their ability to sling much heavier than standard bullets with ease, but i'm bias towards the heavies myself. Just something about a 400gr bullet in a handgun that says "get off my lawn".

  10. #130
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    windber, pa
    Posts
    1,320
    Quote Originally Posted by Metroxfi View Post
    Just something about a 400gr bullet in a handgun that says "get off my lawn".
    does a 460gr lfn gc doing 1300fps coming out of 500 linebaugh(rifle) count?

  11. #131
    Boolit Man sharpshooter3040's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    112

    the magnum issue here and hunting ethics

    I am sure there has been much game taken by black powder fire arms that have trajectories of sling shots. Most of the **** nowadays is from children in charge that think they have reinvented the wheel. With that being said my nephew was so convinced he had to have this magnum to kill a white tail know amount of common sense could change his mind.He had to have that 300 weatherby, well he ended up with intin the blind loaded with solids convinced he was armed for the task. He had his chance at about first light a nice buck wanders in kaabooom right through the shoulders. The buck reared up and took off over the hill. My brother in law was over there with his trusty old 30/30 ....kerpop down he went never knew what hit him. The solid just poked a hole and kept on smokin. I guess my point is experience and tried and true have their merit. Nothing wrong with experimenting though.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by sharpshooter3040; 08-22-2017 at 11:27 AM.

  12. #132
    Boolit Master



    M-Tecs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    4,528
    Quote Originally Posted by sharpshooter3040 View Post
    With that being said my nephew was so convinced he had to have this magnum to kill a white tail know amount of common sense could change his mind.He had to have that 300 weatherby, well he ended up with intin the blind loaded with solids convinced he was armed for the task.
    You can't fix stupid and solids are not legal for big game in most states.

  13. #133
    Boolit Man sharpshooter3040's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    112
    That's a fact. It didn't take him long to drag his old 270 out of the safe after that. He was convinced the magnums were the ticket. This all came about when the short magnums were just coming out, so he got this from some article I'm sure. Anyway too many kids hold too much what the read and see on the internet as being gospel


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #134
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    609
    If solids are BAD, then why do we bother with cast flat points for hunting?

  15. #135
    Boolit Master Harter66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Walker Lake Nv. or just about 5 miles west of the exact middle of nowhere.
    Posts
    4,067
    Quote Originally Posted by Minuteshaver View Post
    If solids are BAD, then why do we bother with cast flat points for hunting?
    In this case I believe the reference is to a monolithic round nose copper or a similar tungsten fortified solid vs what we cast . The FP vs RN makes a big difference in energy transfer and tissue disruption . As a very shallow guide WW and softer will expand while WW to lino tend to be about penetration harder than lino type tend to break up . This is discounted for shape , caliber , specific nose forms .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992

    About that rally point, the soap and mail boxes fall on blind eyes and deaf ears,the ballot box is manipulated,it would seem we are fast running out options....

  16. #136
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Almont, ND
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by tdoyka View Post
    does a 460gr lfn gc doing 1300fps coming out of 500 linebaugh(rifle) count?
    I'm going to say that it does count, mostly for the fact that I would be afraid to tell you no...

    I saw some deer on the drive home last week and it made me think about a story my Grandpa told me. When he was a kid one of the neighbor boys had gotten a brand new 218 Bee rifle and took my Grandpa hunting. They came across a doe and his neighbor shot at it and the deer dropped dead where it stood. The details of the hunt have been lost to time, distance, bullet velocity, bullet style... but it made me think of how the 223 rem is considered underpowered for deer. Granted bullet choice plays a huge role and you still have to do your part but still...

  17. #137
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    windber, pa
    Posts
    1,320
    Quote Originally Posted by Metroxfi View Post
    I'm going to say that it does count, mostly for the fact that I would be afraid to tell you no...

    I saw some deer on the drive home last week and it made me think about a story my Grandpa told me. When he was a kid one of the neighbor boys had gotten a brand new 218 Bee rifle and took my Grandpa hunting. They came across a doe and his neighbor shot at it and the deer dropped dead where it stood. The details of the hunt have been lost to time, distance, bullet velocity, bullet style... but it made me think of how the 223 rem is considered underpowered for deer. Granted bullet choice plays a huge role and you still have to do your part but still...
    i could go up to 530gr lfn gc

    i'm one of those who don't consider a 22 centerfire on deer. heck i don't consider a 24 cal on deer. i have used a 243 on deer(150lbs avg) and i found that i, personally don't like the 24 calibers, esp when your shot is 30 yards or less. i think that the PA game commision used to a 24cal centerfire, now its a 22cal centerfire. WV, i think, uses a 24 cal centerfire.

  18. #138
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    barry s wales uk
    Posts
    1,064
    Well said ,you don't drive at the redline all he time but its nice when you need it .I load my 308 to 3030 performance most of the time as its easier one me and my rifle .

  19. #139
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    windber, pa
    Posts
    1,320
    Quote Originally Posted by robg View Post
    Well said ,you don't drive at the redline all he time but its nice when you need it .I load my 308 to 3030 performance most of the time as its easier one me and my rifle .
    i load up my 30-40 krag to 1800fps and my 500 linebaugh(rifle) with hs-6(about 1200-1300fps).

  20. #140
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    6,882
    Well, we've got 7 pages of comments on the OP's proposition. Seems like a pretty normal conversation on "killing power" and related matters. Here's something that stumps me, though, and casts doubt on the "bigger/faster is better theory:

    Long ago, I read that shorts killed squirrels better than .22 LR RF's. I snickered at such a statement. Then, one day, I went to town to get some ammo, and they were fresh out of LR's. All they had was shorts. I did what any good young hunter would do. I bought the sorts. Better to go hunting with most anything than to not go hunting at all! But the surprise came when I realized that every squirrel I shot that day fell out of the tree dead as a hammer! This didn't make sense to me. After all, anyone could clearly see the LR round was bigger than the shorts, so it OUGHT to naturally kill better, right? But it didn't! With a good body shot in the heart/lung area, squirrels often ran before falling out. With shorts, they just seemed to hump up and fall out dead.

    Now I don't pretend to have an explanation for this. I've asked plenty of times, and have been told it might have something to do with "dwell time" in the body - an old Brit theory. I've been told lots of things, but have yet to get an explanation I thought I really understood and that also seemed to apply to the question. So here I sit, knowing from results that shorts do indeed tend to kill some animals better than full sized long rifle ammo, but not a real clue as to why that is! And BTW, if you like to shoot your bullfrogs for their legs, short HP's are THE round to use! The hyper vel. HP's often cause some sort of automatic reaction in the nerves and make them jump a good ways into the water on impact. Some can be found with a long handled landing net, but some will be lost. regular LRHP's often make them jump, but not quite as far on impact. Short HP's on the other hand, pretty uniformly make them plop straight down if you hit that tiny little brain they have. Distances are short, so a good trigger pull and some short HP's ought to net you a fine dinner of frawg laigs!

    Lots of "funny" stuff happens into the woods. Some of it can be explained by closer observation of the actual wound, if possible, but some of it becomes a real puzzler and defies all explanation, other than the variability of the quarry at the moment of the shot. It MIGHT have been excited moments before we took the shot, and still have adrenaline in it. Who knows? I don't. And I've autopsied over 300 deer, and watched many others, and there's STILL stuff that just defies rational explanation. Does this mean that animals are "irrational????" Heck if I know!!! All I know is that if you use a "soft for caliber" game bullet that expands readily, and fire it at or near 3000 fps, and place it just behind the foreleg from a broadside shot, you'll likely go pick up your venison where it was standing when shot. BUT .... ALL of those factors have to be met. Take away or modify any one of them and ... it's off to the races, and I wouldn't predict the results for a big ol' bag of quarters!

    If any of you have it all figured out, you're a lot smarter than I am, and I'm not one bit ashamed to admit it. The woods can be a funny place sometimes. Sure keeps a feller humble!

Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check