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Thread: the magnum issue here and hunting ethics

  1. #101
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    Interesting conversation for sure.

    Seasoned casters who have hunted and used cast know it doesn't take much and have seen first hand the effectiveness of a simple cast boolit.

    My last 2-3 deer were harvested with cast. One was a 45/70 launching eithwrna 350 or 405fr WFN variety with a starter to mid load of Varget and my last was with a 41 Mag using a 235gr WFN with a starter to mid load of IMR 4227. Both ran a little and expired with nice blood trails.

    My jacketed hunting rifles include my 243, 30-06 and 308. My 308 is a really nice rifle
    And will likely be my main rifle for a long time and will sell my 30-06. Despite load development and bedding, I can barely get to 1 to 1-1/2" at best at 100 yards.

    I don't have any super wiz bang magnums unless you count my fathers 7 STW. I'd like to find a commercial rifle and keep it as an "Out West" rifle should I ever venture that way. Otherwise my 308, 45/70 and 22lr rifles have me pretty much covered.

  2. #102
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    These threads are always so amusing. The fact is there are limits to whatever you choose to use. I love casting and shooting cast boolits and hunting with cast boolits. But I hunt a mix of woods and farm land where shots do often exceed 150 yards and my hunting party members and I have in fact taken several deer over just the last few years at ranges exceeding 150 yards.

    So in these conditions why should I be carrying my 45-70 with cast boolits? I may as well not be carrying anything.

    The point is while most shots are in the 35-65 or whatever range why should you limit yourself to a firearm that is only capable that? You have to match your equipment to your possible needs or be ready to pass up opportunity.

    Yes there is a time and place for a big slow moving lead boolit but there is also the same for a high speed flat shooting one too.

    Oh yeah. My last 3 WV whitetails were taken with a AR-15 .223/5.56 It works just fine with the right bullets.

    Motor

  3. #103
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    I dare say that big ole slow slug will take'm way out there just as well as the flat shooting wiz bang magnum, it is just harder for the shooter to put the slug on target! You probably won't have to worry about bullet performance worth the big heavy either!

  4. #104
    Boolit Master Harter66's Avatar
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    Just a thought to think .
    The 185 gr .490 RB over 100gr of FFg leaves the muzzle of my TC Hawkin at just about 2600 fps it's a dead heat for a 180 in an 06' for the first 60 yd .

    According to Trapdoor data in the Lyman 48th a 45-110 in a 34" bbl with a JSP 405 has the same ballistics as that same bullet in a 24" 458 WM .

    Compared to a 30-30 the 300 Savage is a tank killer and the 06' may as well be a 8" howidzer .

    With the 25-35 as a base the 25-06' is a a super mag .

    The Mongols had a 60# bow while the Britt's were fussing with 35# 40" draw long bows . Meanwhile in the Americas drive hunts were chasing buffalo over a cliff and rabbits into a net .

    It is really a matter of choice . Is my 264 WM really a mag if it's down loaded to hot loaded 6.5×55 ? Doesn't ,even for the intermediate caster , using cast take the game hunting magnum out of the 300WM ? Who can tell what us happens to a 312-155 when you pull the trigger on 65 gr of 4350 ?
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992

    About that rally point, the soap and mail boxes fall on blind eyes and deaf ears,the ballot box is manipulated,it would seem we are fast running out options....

  5. #105
    Boolit Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    If I could just keep them from eating the flowers and the grape vines...

  6. #106
    Boolit Master Harter66's Avatar
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    https://youtu.be/HHbWL83fJAw

    72 cal match lock with the same penetration performance as a 340 gr 44 Magnum just doing it with a 600 gr RB .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992

    About that rally point, the soap and mail boxes fall on blind eyes and deaf ears,the ballot box is manipulated,it would seem we are fast running out options....

  7. #107
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    "I think" and "I believe" are not synonymous. 'Believing' something does not require any thought at all.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harter66 View Post
    Just a thought to think .
    The 185 gr .490 RB over 100gr of FFg leaves the muzzle of my TC Hawkin at just about 2600 fps it's a dead heat for a 180 in an 06' for the first 60 yd .

    According to Trapdoor data in the Lyman 48th a 45-110 in a 34" bbl with a JSP 405 has the same ballistics as that same bullet in a 24" 458 WM .

    Compared to a 30-30 the 300 Savage is a tank killer and the 06' may as well be a 8" howidzer .

    With the 25-35 as a base the 25-06' is a a super mag .

    The Mongols had a 60# bow while the Britt's were fussing with 35# 40" draw long bows . Meanwhile in the Americas drive hunts were chasing buffalo over a cliff and rabbits into a net .

    It is really a matter of choice . Is my 264 WM really a mag if it's down loaded to hot loaded 6.5×55 ? Doesn't ,even for the intermediate caster , using cast take the game hunting magnum out of the 300WM ? Who can tell what us happens to a 312-155 when you pull the trigger on 65 gr of 4350 ?

    "The 185 gr .490 RB over 100gr of FFg leaves the muzzle of my TC Hawkin at just about 2600 fps it's a dead heat for a 180 in an 06' for the first 60 yd ."

    Are you sure about that velocity? I have doubts.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  9. #109
    Boolit Master Harter66's Avatar
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    That's what the Thomson book says . I didn't have a Chrony when I worked to the loads . I think I wound up with a real life best load of ownself screened powder around 2300 fps .

    My point however was that a mag is only a mag if someone puts that lable on it .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992

    About that rally point, the soap and mail boxes fall on blind eyes and deaf ears,the ballot box is manipulated,it would seem we are fast running out options....

  10. #110
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    Well here in Illinois its shotguns and hand guns. I did see the results of a 12 Gauge slug strike as I "Rode" the gun up in recoil 2 years ago. It took a moment to process the stuff flying out the other side of him. My deer tower is a very nice platform to shoot from by the way. That deer jumped and ran forward about 30 feet and stopped. The second shot threw thin leaves and twigs was good too. down in a few feet. The point is they were all know distances with a shotgun, which I think is 72 or 73 caliber. Tremendous power with a 1 1/4 ounces slug. BUT deer do not die unless you do your part. Lost on a few years back when a tree got in the way and some how ricocheted and still crippled in the front leg. Keep thinking he's going down. BAD BAD BAD keep shooting if moving and stand and watch DEAD deer for several minutes ready to shoot again when they come back to life..

  11. #111
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    Bang flop ??? I did one once - a big ole buck kangaroo - shot him with a 348 at about 35 yards - theys a little spot aboot two inches round either side of the butt of the tail - if ya can hit that even with a 22RF youll deck em (sciatic nerve damage I think) - he was grazin away from me and I put that 225 grain gascheck slug on the spot - ker flop!! - skun out - the slug was under the skin between his shoulder blades - near three feet of tissue travel, mushroomed to aboot 60calibre and weighed a touch over 210grains recovered.

  12. #112
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    This is indeed a very interesting subject, and one that involves many differing opinions due to many different techniques used to hunt in folks' various areas, and simple values and beliefs, that are usually relative to what other folks use. FWIW, I worked as a probation officer for a number of years, and got all the night hunting cases because my chief knew I liked to hunt, and knew a lot that those who don't hunt probably wouldn't. In every case, I asked them what they used, and the answer was almost always the .22 LR. I further asked them how deer reacted to the .22, and to a man, they all said that most of them would run off a little ways, fall and die. These guys were pretty good shots, and not just at targets, but at game under real hunting conditions. A few used the .22 RFM, but most thought it made too much noise to keep their activities discrete.

    I also have a friend who for many years was THE man farmers wanted most to crop the deer that were eating their crops to the point of ruin. He often used whatever he had with him when he got off work and made a pass through the area he was supposed to crop the deer, and oftentimes, all he had was a .22. There's no regulation on calibers when cropping deer here. He reported the same things that the night hunters had - that with LRHP's and heart/lung shots, they'd usually hop off a ways and just curl up and die. The .22 mag. tended to put them down in their tracks, or maybe with one step.

    So there's no doubt in my mind that it takes a LOT less than most folks would give credence to, to kill a deer. A really good hunter/woodsman can probably take one with a spear or a slingshot, but it'd take near all their talents and efforts to do it. So I really think that a large portion of the argument about what calibers are appropriate and "sporting" really rests on the skill level of the shooter. If he's a really good shot, and can place his bullets, and knows deer anatomy and bone construction, and doesn't take shots at a deer's rear end, then most folks would probably be very much surprised at how little it really takes to kill a deer IF - and that's the crucial word here - he can and does place his bullets well and appropriately to the angle at which the deer presents itself as a target. He'll wait until he gets a good angle, and will hold his fire until he gets the right distance and angle. He won't try to "shoot through" brushh or even grass, because he knows that even a blade of grass can turn a bullet a LOT more than most would think credible.

    So after all that, what do I use? '06 mostly, or .308 or 7/08 or 6mm. Rem., .45/70 or calibers of that nature. I don't use magnum rifle calibers, and have never even owned one IIRC. Why? I just like to use something that gives me a little margin for error. If any hunters here have never heard or experienced a deer moving just as the trigger breaks, they're lucky, or just haven't been around long enough. It happens. I just enjoy using the larger calibers, and find they give me that extra "edge" to bolster my confidence, so that when I raise my rifle for a shot, I KNOW that the deer is already mine, as much as anyone can really know anything. This keeps me calm and cool so I can break the shot just so, and place that bullet where it needs most to go. Other than one running deer at 265 yds., I can't recall ever hitting further than an inch or two from where I planned for a bullet to go. BUT .... and here's the crucial factor in that, I think ..... I hunt from stands, usually tree stands to get a better angle and see down into brush better, and so I can have a clearer shot. My hunting is done when I'm looking for a place to put the stand, and as I construct it. After that, it's just waiting and being so still I immitate a stump or big coon's nest in the tree. Elevated stands also keep my scent above the deer, usually. Even so, I like to use scent killer and maybe sometimes a cover scent, if I think it's needed. Getting a shot at a standing broadside or nearly broadside deer isn't hard. You just have to know how to tell when the deer is thinking about laving, and wait until you get the most desirable angle. A broadside shot destroys less meat than most other angles, and that's an important factor to most of us, and probably ought to be for all of us, when it can be done.

    Were I a stalk hunter, I'd probably have a lot more difficulty getting those standing, unalarmed, broadside shots that help them collapse at the shot so readily. And therefore, I'd probably use a bit tougher bullet that would penetrate the bigger muscles and bones, especially on an errant shot, or a quick snap shot. I never pull the trigger unless I am "sure" it's "on," but .... we all err in those circumstances, and deer also don't often move in a straight line when getting away, or trying to. As it is, I've used JSP's and capped HP's almost exclusively, and have yet to take my first deer with cast. Hope to do this this coming season, but will have to wait and see. I HAVE, however, compared bullet vs. boolit performance in wet newsprint with some glossy mags to represent tougher tissues, and I have NO doubt what a cast bullet will do. If a 40 gr. .22 LR bullet at @ 1250 fps. will take them, I'm not going to waste any time worrying about the "power" level of my cast loads. The only REAL problem in deer hunting is deciding where to go, and how to set up a bushwack for them. And that'll always be a matter of judgment, knowledge and one's best estimation of how to interpret the signs there. Caliber is probably the least important factor in the whole pursuit. It really IS "where ya' hit 'em," MUCH, MUCH, MUCH More than it is anything else. Hit 'em right, and you'll eat some good venison. Hit 'em wrong, and caliber again doesn't really matter. As Jack O'Connor said long ago (IIRC?), a deer with a broken leg is still just a deer with a broken leg, whether it was broken with a .222 or a .458.

    But these arguments sure do make campfire life lively, don't they?

  13. #113
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    They do. When reality and dogma collide head on...
    I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.

  14. #114
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    Blackwater, pick your favorite cast shorter and go get one this fall, I can tell from your post you understand what it takes and have the "restraint".
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  15. #115
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    Thanks. I hope to do just that. That .35/.303 Imp. ought to be just about as definitive a "medicine" as one could want. I don't get around that well, and don't want to track them any more. I learned long ago how to track, and it seems most of the younger hunters don't really have a clue how to do that any more, and there seems to be less respect for the game as well, and more willingness to leave them to the buzzards, coyotes and ants, etc. That pains me.

    I have some Jbullets for the gun as well, just because I can't resist trying all options with a new gun, but I want to take all or at least most of my future deer with cast. A friend once told me I'd "make my own air" if I could, and I just like the idea of "do it yourself bullets," and I have no places where I can hunt regularly at much distance, so .... cast ought to prove a very worthy field companion on my hunts now. From what I've done testing handgun bullets in the past ought to carry forward into rifles well. I shouldn't need that many experiments to get my alloy and loads worked out just fine ... at least that's what I'm hoping.

    Deer are really pretty easy to kill. If wounded, though, they CAN go an awful long way, which is why I've always adhered to the "one shot, one kill" approach, and hold my shots if I'm not sure of them. I once hunted (and missed) what I honestly believe to have been the biggest deer in Ga. at that time, so even a really nice rack just doesn't have the effect on me that it once would have had. Today, I'm really more of a meat hunter, though I certainly have nothing against a really nice buck. Maybe it'd be nice, after all, to have a real nice one on the wall??? And to take it with bullets I poured myself would give me even more "bragging rights," and astound some of my friends. And I like doing stuff like that!

    All in good fun, of course, and maybe a little effort at getting the "what everybody else is doing" crowd to think a little, and broaden their horizons???? Really GREAT bullets can and do do a better job, and as long as I'm not doing much really long range stuff (except maybe with the BPCR) there's no sense in paying the price for those redish colored bullets any more! Being an old Scot that's .... uh ..... a bit beyond being "thrifty," this appeals to me as well. I live in an area where very few folks reload, and even fewer cast. It's a bit of a lonely place here, when it comes to things like this, but .... I guess the real inquisitive have always been kind'a lonely???? (shrug) Bottom line is, a man's gotta' do what a man's gotta' do, and I've got to keep learning and testing and playing and experimenting and trying new stuff. Where's the fun in NOT doing that?

  16. #116
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    If hunting just means killing, then I would sell all the equipment I currently have and buy a .50 BMG. But, I would much rather hunt with a muzzleloader, pistol or Trapdoor, even if it means I have to pass up some shots. I could also work on improving my stalking and scouting skills. To each his own.

  17. #117
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    most of us(meaning cast booliteers) go whatever distance the cast boolit goes. my 30-40 krag and the 444 marlin will go 150 yards. the 500 linebaugh(rifle) will go 100-125 yards. will they go further? yep, but i chose to limit the the distance(deer/black bear). if its beyond that, then i "chose" the 270win or the 6.5 creedmoor and jacketed bullets. the only magnum i have is a ruger sbh in 44 mag and i chose to use cast boolits.

    in the area that i hunt, most shots are around 50 yards, tho with 20 yards is more common. the furthest i ever shot was 365+/- yards and it was used my 270win(ruger #1). the closest i have shot was 12-15'(yes its feet) with my 270win(ruger #1, the photo under my name is the one). the number of shots that i have had on deer(150-365yards) is something like 6 or 7 shots and they were all 1 shot kills. over a 100 yards, it like 7-8 deer(all 1 shot kills). under 100 yards, i don't know how many i've killed. i have never needed a "magnum" and its likely that i'll never will.

    i'm taking my 270 out because i'm going to hunt a farm that my friend own. in a year or two, when i've "learned" as much as i could, then i'll take my cast boolit's gun. i'll be able to shoot distances that go under 500 yards, but i'll stay the 300-325 yards(i chose to stay) range for jacketed bullets. should i go out and buy a 7.37 remchester super dooper magunumitis that has a 28 1/2" bull barrel that goes 7000fps? no, i'll hunt a deer with my 270 and go 300-325 yards, not tactically shoot a deer at 1000 yards.

    if you like magnums, good for you. i just don't see the need for one or the magnum will go 5-7" higher than a standard cartridge.

    sorry about ranting and raving, you can go on now.

  18. #118
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    We have some sincere thoughts on the table here, no question about it, and some resonate with me a great deal. I don't understand the narrow condemnation of a simple word that means nothing. "Magnum" is window dressing for marketing types, nothing more, or less.

    It matters not at all what one uses to hunt, whether it is rifle, pistol, shotgun, cast, jacketed or just casual sniping with an acid tongue. There is always someone or something faster, bigger etc. And there will always be those who make do with less, somehow defying conventional lore. Lads, it isn't the gun or cartridge that matters, it is the jerk behind the trigger.
    I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.

  19. #119
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    Tdoyka, Love your Mark Twain quote...so fitting these days.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by centershot View Post
    Yes, wellllll...........like many others, I bought into the "HORSEPOWER" thing when I started hunting back in the '60's. Had to have a 30-06 to kill a deer, nothing smaller. Then I started handgun hunting, mid '80's. 44 mag of one iteration or another. Then started paying attention to some guy named Keith. Hmmmm. A44 cal. 250 gr. SWC? Really? A CAST bullet at that? No way!! But, YES, it really did work! That started me hunting with cast bullets. Anyone considering doing this needs to forget jacketed bullet performance and grasp hold of an understanding of lead bullet technology. That big flat point, even as small as on a .30 cal. cast bullet, kills all out of proportion to it's size! AND, at a speed that is much less than it's jacketed brethren need. NEED! Jacketed bullets NEED that speed to perform, cast bullets don't!
    I never put it into perspective that way. The jacket actually hindered the performance of the bullet and required more velocity to do the same job. Great perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by petroid View Post
    First doe last fall hit through both shoulders at 40 yards 300Blk Lee C309-170F at 1600 fps. Hit the ground immediately and thrashed around for six or 7 seconds before expiring. Second doe just watched it happen. Shot her through both lungs right afterwards and she ran 50 or so yards and stopped, hit her one more time and she went ten feet and fell over dead. Put the bullet in the right spot and it will do the job.
    Perfect example of a cartridge people say isn't good enough for deer. Sounds a lot like the 30/30 if you ask me. Though loaded with jacketed and keeping to the mindset above it might be hindered. If people ran 30/30 thin jacketed soft core bullets instead of the bullets designed for 308 Winchester speeds of better yet lead boolits they would see the light.
    22plinkster just had a video with 300BO 150 at 1900fps and 220 at 1000fps shooting through his bulletproof glass like nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by quilbilly View Post
    Personally I don't pay much attention to the "magnum" and "power" thing. I have spent the last 20+ years hunting deer and elk with muzzleloaders and particularly with patched round ball, especially patched 45 cal round ball for large deer. The deer apparently didn't get the memo that a 45 PRB is so powerless at 100 yards that it will just bounce off. I do enjoy the discussions though. This year will be the first in decades I have hunted deer with a modern firearm (treating myself to an expensive "all-season" deer tag) and the loads I will be using will be pretty anemic by modern standards unless I get "el grande" with the 45 PCB first in the early ML season, of course.
    Another awesome point that I love to make. How did hunters do it before the super mags? How did we eat anything but squirrels and chipmunks when all there was to Hunt with was light weight soft lead balls chugging along at moderate speed ? Thank god the 300 RUM was invented so the first deer could be harvested humainly



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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check