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Thread: the magnum issue here and hunting ethics

  1. #141
    Boolit Master



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    Standard velocity 22 LR and shorts are basically the same velocity and the same diameter. The LR has 40 grains bullet verse the 29 grain of the short. HV 22 is going to be faster. Having shot a lot of rabbits with both the short's and LR I never noticed much difference until you stepped up to HV hollow point. Stingers with 32 grain bullet were the first of the HV if I remember correctly. They did a better job on rabbits than the standard HP 22's

  2. #142
    Boolit Master
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    yes but step up to the 22 magnum now then you have something
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  3. #143
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    A LOOOONG time ago during high school biology class I told the teacher that over the weekend I could get us plenty of live bull frogs to work on. Come Monday I'm dragging two, two gal icecream pails of big live bull frogs into class. I don't think he ever believed I caught them with a 22 rifle! Shot a CCI Stinger into the mud or water just next to them and their nervous system just locks up. Pick them up put them in a bag and about 5 mins later they come back to life jumping like crazy!

    There may be something to that dwell time thing as well. I squirrel hunt with ELEY sshp and they just seem to snatch squirrels off the limb!

  4. #144
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    I guess I do not understand what magnumitis has to do with hunting ethics.
    What has magnum got to do with anything, when it comes to hunting. A 357 is a magnum and in my opinion is on the low end of useful calibers for big game, now step up to 44, anybody really think you are overgunned??
    I have centerfire rifles starting at 22 hornet on up to 375 mag, they all have their usefulness.

    If we want to talk ethics, I am more inclined to denounce those that want to use the smallest caliber downloaded to where it will barely get the job done under perfect circumstances.
    All that said, it has not been that long ago that most folks owned one rifle (some just a shotgun) and did just fine with what they had and used. They just stuck to the limitations they had.
    When I was a kid most hunters in east texas used a 12 gauge for everything, west texas and New Mexico seems like 3006 and 270 were the most popular and a shotgun was for birds.

  5. #145
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    Well said, Starmac. One CAN be "ethical" in hunting deer with anything from a .22 LR up to a .600 Nitro. With the .22, you're nearly completely dependent on precise shot placement, and mostly on head shots, IF you know where a deer's brain actually IS. With the .600, you're more concerned with what's on the other side of the deer. Don't wanna' shoot another hunter or someone out in their yards hoeing weeds! And really, that's the long and short of it. Everything in between is a compromise of one sort or another, whether we recognize it as such or not. Ethics afield are all about a quick, clean kill, and any caliber CAN kill quickly IF it's simply used within the confines of its capabilities. A .22 LR in the brain is equally as effective as a .300 mag. in the ribs. That is, assuming good bullet selection with the .300.

    The most aggrevating thing about the magnums is their ability to "blow up" conventional bullets when driven to velocities sometimes 500 fps. beyond their original design limitations for the .308-'06 class of ctg. This really complicates everything, and makes it necessary to describe the load that acted a certain way on a certain game animal at a certain time, INCLUDING what 180 gr. (or other wt.) bullet was used and what actual velocity in that gun was, plus how far it was from the muzzle, etc, etc, etc.

    When I was a kid, I picked up whatever I had ammo for, and just struck out afield in search of adventure and something to hunt and eat. And I learned to be sneaky - in other words, a pretty good hunter - and to watch the wind if my quarry was smells sensitive. And I never took a shot that I considered to be unethical. Ammo was too precious! I pretty well knew the limitations of a .22 and followed them closely, and picked my shots according to what ammo I was using. I ALWAYS tried it to see where it printed in relation to the sights. Didn't wanna' waste a single round, and one or two on target saved me a lot of wasted shots.

    Ethical hunting CAN be done with almost anything. But one CANNOT hunt in any old manner with the light calibers, and can't shoot indiscriminately in all directions with "super bullets" that take a lot of stopping. That's really the long and short of it. It's the human behind the trigger/muzzle that makes a shot ethical or not. A friend of mine killed a mature buck deer with a pretty nice rack with his .177 pellet gun. He didn't think it'd kill one, and he aimed right between its eyes. That deer didn't know any better than to fall dead as a wedge right there! Distance was maybe 20 yds., and he used one of the heavier pellets, same as he does for squirrels that offend occasionally. This is in a gated community in the mountains! He used the pellet gun so as to not offend the liberal neighbors, and just to shoo it off and keep it out of his and his wife's flowers. But .... he made the best of it. He set the pellet rifle down, and grabbed his skinning knife. If his neighbors knew what he'd done, they'd have gone into apoplexy! But he's a sneaky rascal, and knew just what to do, and really didn't care if some greenie went into apoplexy or not. He's kind'a stern that way.

  6. #146
    Boolit Master kens's Avatar
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    I think you should size the gun for the quarry, and the hunting terrain your most likely to be in.
    Example; last year I had a nice Browning A-Bolt (.270) in a tree stand in thick woods. Some deer walked by, and I shouldered the gun only to see the scope completely full of hair. I couldnt tell if the hair was the front end or back end. I remember thinking 'this is stupid', a .270 for a 30yard shot on a whitetail!!! No, I didnt pull the trigger, both ends of the hair walked off.
    To resolve the issue, I sold the .270 and built a .35Rem mauser fitted with ghost ring sights. This seems to be more ethical than a .270 from a tree stand, in the woods.

  7. #147
    Boolit Master
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    last year I shot a buck at 30 yds in the woods with a 280 ai with a 3x10 power scope
    I was sitting in a corner of a field on the edge of the woods
    was the set up a wrong choice?
    I don't think so
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  8. #148
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    a few years ago, i shot my 8pt at 15 feet with a 270 with a 3-9x. i've shot many deer (all kids of calibers and scopes) under 30 yards.

  9. #149
    Boolit Master kens's Avatar
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    I just think that the high speed calibers are uncomfortable when up in a tree stand, where you often shoot in a awkward position, that is where I rather have less caliber, for the recoil, and report. Maybe I flinch a lot.
    As long as you get the game cleanly, it remains ethical.
    Personally, I feel more ethical with a bit less caliber, I feel more confident shooting from the off side, up in a tree.

  10. #150
    Boolit Master
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    I don't see how caliber choice has any bearing on ethics
    the name of the game is hunting and as long as the hunter chooses
    a caliber up to the task they have ethics covered
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  11. #151
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    A lot of calibers simply are not up to the task. A lot of calibers unless you use an fmj really cannot give you a reasonable chance of getting into internal organs.

  12. #152
    Boolit Master



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    FMJ's are not legal for big game in most states.

  13. #153
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    If I was stuck having to use one caliber only,I would pick the old classic 45-70 loaded to normal TD loads with the 405 grn slug.About 1250 to 1300 FPS for deer and larger.Sure it is a short range load.About 100 to 130 yds for me at least.Been putting grub on the table for what?About 140 yrs give or take.Also tons of bullet and boolit types to choose from.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
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  14. #154
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    my shortest shot was 15ft vertically and 2 ft horizontally with a 300 Weatherby .. Deer literally walked to my stand in my footsteps
    by the time I was able to get my gun and me up he was under my stand smelling the steps
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  15. #155
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    What if the standard cartridge IS the magnum compared to the current production ? The modern loadings of the caliber .30 model of 1906 almost certainly meets the definition of shooting a heavier projectile or shooting faster than the standard when compared to the much higher pressure Johnny come lately in 1957 308 aka T65 . Is a CIP loaded 757 a standard and the 764 Brennke or 763 (280 Rem/7mm Express) magnums ? Does that make the 7mm Rem Mag a true magnum along side the belted case of the slightly more tapered 275 H&H ? Which is the magnum if we compare the 7mm Mauser to the 7-08 ? Where does the 7-30 Water fit , it certainly isn't a mag but it sure makes SAMMI specs Mauser and 7-08 look like they are . The 270 WSM much less the much earlier Win are battle ship guns next to the 6.8 SPC so is the 195? 270 Win a mag ?

    By the way just because I'm feeling pissy caliber/calibre have nothing to do with whether or not a CARTRIDGE is a magnum . A 22 caliber 55 gr is just that whether it's in a 5.7 FN or a Loudunboomerearcanspliter. (Yes that's a real wildcat .)
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  16. #156
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    Classification of a magnum is tricky and is honestly just a label. Everything is a magnum compared to something else, my 454 Casull isn't a magnum but at the same time it is. As Harter described with the various 7mm's, just because one is faster than another does that consider it a magnum? The 30-06 isn't a magnum but compared to a 30-30 it is. The Colt Walker isn't a magnum but compared to a Dragoon... you get my point.

    It's all just labels. I think the issue is more so with the implication that a magnum labelled cartridge will perform better than a standard one, thus allowing the shooter to be less diligent when doing their part. Notice how I said the implication. Why would an inexperienced hunter want a measly little 308win and have to track when they could go with a 300 Ubermag and have it skinned and quartered on the spot? Magnum cartridges make you a better hunter like having a fast car makes you a better driver, you can still miss or make a **** shot and you can still be the A-hole who doesn't use your blinker. Magnums, in my opinion are a marketing gimmick (well, in most cases at least.) it seems like there's always something new coming out that will do a whoppin' 100fps more than the competitor's pet cartridge. It's been that way for a long time. The name on the headstamp says nothing about how well a cartridge will or will not work.

    I can see a want/use for magnum rifle cartridges in the long range game where starting out with a heavier bullet going a touch faster will extend your reach significantly but that's where the hunting ethic issue comes in. At the silhouette shoot I go to if the target rings, it's a hit. It doesn't matter if you hit the horn of the ram, the leg of the bear, or the beard on the buffalo, it's a hit. It's not so cut and dry when dealing with something living, especially when you have an inflated sense of ability due to the letters stamped on the base of your ammo. Like how I described before about the guy I load 300 RUM's for and how his son felt the need to make a 700+ yard shot on a whitetail then had to do a follow up shot on it. You just can't have the precise shot placement you need on a long range cold bore shot, it's one thing to ring an 18" gong but to be able to put it inside a 6" circle of vitals... well i'm not gonna help you gut it.

    Someone just mentioned bullet choice on magnums, I can't find who it was at a quick glance, but they mentioned the additional velocity of magnums to be too much for some commercial bullets, like shooting a bullet designed for 308win from a 300rum. You get dramatic expansion, almost acts like a varmint bullet, but if the bullet was designed for proper (and useful) expansion at a lower velocity why not tone it down a bit and ruin less meat? On the flip side, using a bullet designed for magnum velocities in a slower cartridge is also something I've seen.

    All in all a person just has to think about what they're shooting, what they're shooting at, and what they want to happen. The bullet/load that will drop an angry grizzly won't be the right choice for a whitetail, and the perfect deer load might not be enough for an elk. Just because you can get 6' penetration on a cape buffalo doesn't mean you need the same amount on that corn fed doe peeking through the bushes at you. Think of how deep the vitals are and how hard it is to get to them, then think of how deep a bullet out of -insert random cartridge here- will penetrate and how wide the wound cavity will be and ask, will it do enough proper damage? A varmint bullet that explodes in the first 8" might work on a thin skinned deer but will only wound a moose. A bullet that penetrates deep enough on a moose might just poke a hole in a deer.

    What you have will work, just make sure you can shoot it accurately enough to matter.
    Last edited by Metroxfi; 09-12-2017 at 01:50 PM.

  17. #157
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    ^^^ last paragraph is absolutely dead on .. know your game, bullet, its intended velocities and with your cartridge where/when it falls below stated velocities
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  18. #158
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    I really find this humorous. 35 years ago before the proliferation of bow hunters most western hunters would argue that shooting from a tree stand is not ethical hunting. Magnums really come into there own when you have 400 yards between you and game with nothing taller than 8" grass for miles. So much is regional of our expectations.
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  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    I really find this humorous. 35 years ago before the proliferation of bow hunters most western hunters would argue that shooting from a tree stand is not ethical hunting. Magnums really come into there own when you have 400 yards between you and game with nothing taller than 8" grass for miles. So much is regional of our expectations.
    heck, i remember out east that we built a treestand out of 2x4's and nails. i still see remnants of treestands. now you go to dunhams, etc and buy a steel/aluminum treestand.

    now its just me, but a magnum has a belt on the case. and its just me, but if you can't do a 300-325 yard shot, then i consider that shooting a game animal, not hunting game. but thats just me.


    i've never owned a magnum, 7mm, 300, 338,.... but i have shot them. a 460 weatherby has done everything but break my shoulder. i shot it once. only once. i have shot 7mm rem, 300win, 300 weatherby, 338 win, 375 h&h and 378 weatherby and all i can say is, "eh, i have shot them...eh". the only time "i have to have a '06". which i did a couple of years later.
    i have "shot" a couple of deer beyond my own limitations(300-325 yards). the furthest i every shot was a doe at 365+/- yards with my 270. 1 shot/ 1 drt.

    but since my stroke, i try to limit myself on shot distance. cast boolit will go 150 yards and a jacketed bullet will go 300-325 yards. but thats just me, you can do whatever you can do

  20. #160
    Boolit Master
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    A magnum does not need a belt
    just look at the short mags and the Nosler line up
    mags have their place if you take two examples in the .284 bore
    when hunting in the wide wide open I would rather be shooting a
    7mm STW or a 284 Nosler than a 7-08 or 7mm mauser
    range estimation is not as critical when using the first two
    do they have a place in our golf bag of armament sure do they work
    for everyone I seriously doubt it
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check