Hollow Points, Wadcutters, and Round nose, OH MY!

[sniper]

It seems we have come full circle, or, as one of the Utah Jazz basketball team once remarked, "We'll just do a 360, and get out of here!"

First, there were the round-nose boolits, which were relatively low-velocity, and called "widow-makers" by lawmen who carried them, even when "high velocity" loads were introduced. These were sometimes replaced by full wadcutter target ammunition, at about the same velocity, which were said to be more effective. They were replaced by hollow-point semiwadcutter ammo, that was said (with some justification) to be more effective and accurate at longer ranges. In the '40s, my Uncle, as a detective, (as a beat cop , he once had a gun battle with his reflection in a mirror, when he found a store door unlocked and open!) carried conical "armor piercing" ammo in his Colt snubby, that had clear plastic grips, inside of which he had a picture of his second,"trophy" wife, "Skippy". At 5, I was an observant little tad.

When I started loading in the '60s, there was +P 158gr LSWCHP " FBI/Dade County/RCMP" load, which was carried by those who probably didn't want to carry the new, high velocity "Blue Whistlers"... 125gr @ ~1,400 fps, which wrecked the forcing cones of many fine K frame Smiths. (We shoot best with what kicks us least, maybe?)

Now, we have .38 Special 158, 125 and 110 gr +P loads, which are said to be only a little less effective than full-snort Magnum loads, much easier to shoot accurately, and wonder of wonders, the old, all most forgotten Wadcutter Match loads @~ 7-800 fps have been rediscovered by scads of knowledgeable shooters as easily-handled self-defense loads! Even in the little teeny guns that have become so popular lately!

Now, there are plain square-based, and bevel-based wadcutters and round nose-flat point boolits.

What's a person to do? Does it all come down to the meplat? Used in a self-defense scenario, do bevel-based Wadcutters act like the round-nosed boolits of old, or does the flat area increase effectiveness? Are round-nose flat point boolits as effective as the "old technology" semiwadcutters, with the only real advantage faster speedloading for competititions?

[Walkingwolf]

Bullet placement.

[35remington]

Yep. I don't worry so much about the other stuff as that.

My reloads are the 358311 (horrors.....a pointy roundnose!) loaded to 850 fps. Why? Because in the dark they speedload more reliably than any other configuration. Carry is a load identical or very similar to Ed Harris's (see the article he penned) full charge wadcutter.....148 Lee WC at 780 fps or so from my 638.

I don't worry about whether the bullet will expand or not because it ain't gonna.

I do not believe a shoulder on a SWC bullet adds to the wounding effect. The flat point, in my opinion, does all the work.

[buckwheatpaul]

Bullet placement, control-ability for quick follow up (you know 2 in the chest and one in the head), practice, practice, practice, and faith in your weapon and your ability will always trump hard thumping and no practice!

[Bigslug]

There's a lot of sense in the post-'86 FBI prioritization, which is placement, penetration, and expansion/diameter, in that order, and it's really not all that different from what a lot of old timers and big game hunters were all about.

Once all that's achieved however, there is benefit to a shape that causes wounding beyond the diameter of the bullet itself, even if that's only a couple tenths of an inch. The crush/grab/pull/tear effect of a flat nose (or an HP that becomes one) might produce the major arterial bleed-out that the round nose didn't.

Keith did a lot of his SWC pioneering on the easily-observed FACT that the full-diameter shoulder makes a nice clean hole in paper, and the THEORY/ASSUMPTION that it would do the same in meat. We seem to be learning that the meplat causes all the "splash" in tissue, and that the SWC shoulder ends up untouched in a void caused by what the meplat displaced. That, I can't fully speak to, as both styles can make a dandy mess of things, but I can say that the RNFP/LFN/WFN IS a better use of the space available, allowing more weight to be moved forward out of the powder chamber by virtue of the generally wider body of the nose. We frequently discuss the inability of Elmer's 173 grain 358429 (originally a .38 bullet) to work with normal crimp-groove seating in a .357 case because a lot of cylinders are too short for that combo, where there are plenty of similar weight RNFP's that will work fine in that role.

Only two potential problem with the .38 wadcutter as a house load: (1.) It's typically sitting on top of truly creampuff powder charges. So long as it's going fast enough to make it to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop, party on. It's a great option for those who can't shoot the hotter stuff or afford the expensive stuff (2.) Getting it cleanly into a chamber in a hurry under stress can be problematic - not really an issue if you get it done in the first five.

The 110 grain HP's I wouldn't touch with a 30 foot cleaning rod, as they hearken back to the ill-conceived notion of the 1980's 9mm load - fast, rapid expansion, rapid energy loss, didn't penetrate worth a damn. Momentum is your friend, and ping pong balls don't have it.

[Drm50]

I've got a few S&W revolvers and shoot WCs in all them except 41mgs. Don't have a 41WC mold.
My K32, K38s & M19s all are fed WCs / Target loads. I don't usually hunt with the S&Ws. I have
a M25-83/8" that is a outstanding shooter. I shoot the 454-309 WC, 237g / 12.5 gr Win -630
gives me about 800fps. Anyway took the 45 deer hunting and shot a small buck at 30yds, broadside. Classic heat & lung shot. Deer made it 15yds and went down for the count. I couldn't
have killed it deader with a HP. If you are wondering about Win-630, I was at a auction some
years back. They had seven sealed drums of W-630 , they also had many other shotgun powders.
W-630 was first up, they couldn't get a bid. Auction went clear down $4.50@, I couldn't stand it
and bought it. The rest of the powders went higher than store price.

[Scharfschuetze]

W-630 was first up, they couldn't get a bid. Auction went clear down $4.50

Lucy you. That was one of my favorite 38 Special powders in the early to mid 70s.

The 110 grain HP's I wouldn't touch with a 30 foot cleaning rod, as they hearken back to the ill-conceived notion of the 1980's 9mm load - fast, rapid expansion, rapid energy loss, didn't penetrate worth a damn. Momentum is your friend, and ping pong balls don't have it.

Amen to that. In the early 1980s I was issued what we called the Treasury Round during training at the FLETC. It was a 110 grain +P+ JHP and as noted, it didn't seem like a very good idea and it required a drastic sight change from the agency's normal 357 load.

I'm with the bullet placement gang for hand gun stopping abilities. Certainly calibre, velocity and bullet shape and type all contribute to it, but in the end, you need to hit vital organs, arteries or break a major bone. Even with center of torso hits, stopping an Adrenalin or drug saturated biped is not a guarantee of an immediate stop.

What African hunter said "Use enough Gun"? I think that it was a fellow named Ruark. Probably good advice for the hand gunners too.

[Outpost75]

AutoComp tracks really close to WC630 in terms of charge/pressure/velocity in .38 Special.

In a strong gun built for .357 you can use 630 data as a guide for loading .38 Special +P withAutoComp.

[Char-Gar]

Bullet placement.

That is about as close to pure truth as we will likely ever know. However, I would add, I pick ammo based on where I will be. If, I am in a people rich environment, like church, I carry old Federal 125 grain +P Nyclad HP in my 38 Special to reduce the risk of over penetration. Otherwise I load the revolver with full charge wadcutters.

I have a very long history with DA revolvers in 38 Special and shoot my carry gun frequently. I have a high level of confident that I can put whatever bullet, in the right place.

[Beagle333]

Bullet placement is it. Any bullet, any type, just get it (or 2 or 3) into him and then you can start nitpicking about details when he's down.

[Groo]

Groo here
As long as the hole goes where and when you want it and goes deep enough to hit the "good stuff", the rest is up to debate.
The depth a bullet goes [at a given range] is controlled by speed and the size of the flat.[ including the deformation ]
Just why someone has not made a "Flat pointer" [like for 22lr] for RN 38spec load, I don't know?

[tdoyka]

Groo here
As long as the hole goes where and when you want it and goes deep enough to hit the "good stuff", the rest is up to debate.
The depth a bullet goes [at a given range] is controlled by speed and the size of the flat.[ including the deformation ]
Just why someone has not made a "Flat pointer" [like for 22lr] for RN 38spec load, I don't know?

Paco Kelly’s AT System Flatface Rimfire Bullet Reforming Tools

i used to do my own 22lr. i'd take a chunk of steel and drill it out. i would then take a 22lr out and set it up on the table. then i would put my chunk of steel on top of my 22lr so only the nose was showing out. then i would file it away. it was a little spartan but it did the same thing. that had to be 30 or so years ago. i wonder where the chunk went?

[Good Cheer]

NEI made a 358-148 gas checked wadcutter mold that works well cast soft and jacked up.
In some revolvers you can size the front part to be a bore rider and seat the slug way out for lots of 296.
Good mold but another 25 grains would be better.

[tazman]

NOE makes a hollow point version of the 358432 which is designed to load long leaving plenty of room for powder. It shoots great.

[Von Dingo]

How bout dat

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revo...llistics-test/

They also have done .380, 9 mm, .40 S & W, and .45 ACP. Worth a look.

Let the Flaming begin.

[gwpercle]

When I questioned my grandfather about his use of a single shot 22 LR rifle to hunt and kill wild hogs with , when my daddy and uncles all swore a 30-30 or 12 gauge with slugs was the minimum that could be used.....He told " Boy I'm going to tell you a secrete they haven't learned yet....it's not what you shoot them (hogs) with....it's where you place the bullet ! One shot , through the ear hole and into the brain and you got a dead hog.....every time. Remember that ."
According to the old man shot placement mattered .
Gary

[Der Gebirgsjager]

People are not made of ballistic gel.

[jmort]

Whether you accept it or not, the FBI and others have settled on it as the best medium for the prediction of terminal ballistic effect. Do you know of a better medium???
Goats have been used but that will not fly today. So what do you propose for ballistic testing???

[RoyEllis]

Whether you accept it or not, the FBI and others have settled on it as the best medium for the prediction of terminal ballistic effect. Do you know of a better medium???
Goats have been used but that will not fly today. So what do you propose for ballistic testing???

How about "Gitmo Ballistics and Autopsy Academy".....has a nice ring to the renaming, don't ya think?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

jmort--I don't care what they use. There are no bones, ligaments, tendons, or vital organs in ballistic gel. I am a firm believer in utilizing the data collected from actual street shootings. Very often the results don't correspond to gel testing at all.