410 leige side lever shot gun conversion

[barrabruce]

You know those 410 gumboot guns...poachers pet etc 410s.
Side lever skinny whisper light 410's chambered for 2 or 2 1/2" shells.

What could you safely convert these too.

I can get a hold of one thats in reasonable nick and I think it would be so sweet for a pot gun.

22lr but thinking of more the lines of a re-loadable cartridge.

Attachment 195197
Thanks

[BigEyeBob]

I see alot of them advertised online and called poachers guns , in fact they were made to fold up so they could be easily carried on a bicycle .Ive alwys known them as bicycle guns.
As to converting it to a rifle ,maybe 25-20 or a small 32calibre ,or even one of the older rook cartridges like 297/320 Morris long or 300 Rook. Both are center fire and rimmed cartridges and easily reloaded .Bertram may have brass for both . 297 can be made from 22 hornet brass.Regulating the barrels to shoot to the same point of impact would be a challenge . Of course there is the option to make a cape gun , rifle barrel one side and 410 shotgun on the other. Interesting project either way.

The attached image is of a double rifle built using a high end
AYA 410 shoutgun ,it has three sets of barrels , the original 410 barrels , a pair of barrels in 22lr and a pair in 38-40 wcf. Was built for a friend of mine who passed away last year ,I dont think he actually got to shoot it.
The smith was Bob deVris of Kudu Services, who did an exceptional job on it.
Kev.

[ulav8r]

32 S&W Long.

[Jedman]

I think your talking about a single barreled gun and I agree with ulav8r 32 S&W is best.

Jedman

[barrabruce]

yes a single barrel.
I believe the older 410's that were paper shells and were of the lower pressure proofing.
10-12,000 psi tops maybe???
Yes the sw 32 long sounds safe at this point.

thnx

[barrabruce]

Ended up buying a couple of 310 martini cadets instead.

One has a barrel thats toast so back to the 30 reece 30 Badger 30/20 dreaming.

[Jedman]

Yes ! Now you have a bunch of options.

Jedman

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ah, the first firearm I ever laid hands on! I can just remember when the much less common double, at least, was available new on the market. Those cadets might have stalled this programme for a while, until it comes back and gnaws at you again. But I think, with a few reservations, it is a good one.

The Belgian proof tests were reliable, but intended for the use of the .410 cartridge. I have seen a receiver broken at the junction of the standing breech with the action bar, but that may have been achieved by some fairly extreme abuse, such as the use of a 2½in. cartridge in the much less common 2in. chamber, which was even worse in the days of the thicker paper cases, as it makes for more of an obstruction. I think I have done that, and got away with it, in the days when such a chambering was unknown to me. It is also possible that some of the early black powder ones had malleable cast receivers, like the Stevens Favourites. In the 1950s the British government bought large quantities of the 12ga version for issue to villagers in the Mau-Mau emergency in Kenya. They were sold off as surplus in the late 60s, for 8 to £10, with no ill effects that I ever heard of.

You might find some information on http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20fr.htm . There is an English version, but it doesn't take much knowledge of the language to make the French one more intelligible. Most of them weren't identified with the maker's name, and where there is a name it may be the retailer's. I'd limit myself to a nitro-proved one, and I wouldn't go beyond ordinary .32S&W Long pressures, at which it should be a highly effective small-game rifle. It is easier to load and obtain components for than any of the heel-bullet cartridges. In particular I would avoid the .25-20. It would be very good with reduced loads, but rifles last longer than we do, and there is no telling what someone might do in the future.

[Outpost75]

I have had several rifle barrels relined or new barrels done for pre-WW2 rook and rabbit rifles. I have had most satisfactory results using lower-powered, standard pressure pistol cartridges such as the .32 S&W Long and .38 Special. You can then use ordinary lead factory ammunition with great delight and reload with common components and tested, standard pressure loads which don't exceed about 16,000 psi. Modern .410 shotgun actions can handle .38 Special +P and .357, but not the older mallable iron ones. The .44-40 is good candidate for the older .410-size actions.

[barrabruce]

Yes I will look at it again for proof marks
And keep it in mind.
Maybe.....ooohhhh it does something for me thou.

Used one when I was growning up too.

Paper cartridges from eley and another brand I can't remember.
Shot a few quail , rabbits and crippled ducks with one.

Ours was different and had I think a brass bolt through the hinge pin and a washer and nut of sorts. Ha

Couldn't wait to progressed up in shooting prowess to the BSA s/s 12 guage.
It had pits that you could sorta feel on the outside of the barrel in places and if you raised or lowered the muzzle you could hear the case rims tink from the slop falling forward or back.

How I ever survived child hood I will never know

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I see alot of them advertised online and called poachers guns , in fact they were made to fold up so they could be easily carried on a bicycle .Ive alwys known them as bicycle guns.

Yes, just like the Velo Dog revolver was to protect cyclists from dogs, and there must be some good reason I haven't thought of for baseball bats to outsell baseballs. With no numberplates and inconspicuous parking, it was pretty common for poachers to ride bicycles.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes I will look at it again for proof marks
And keep it in mind.
Maybe.....ooohhhh it does something for me thou.

Used one when I was growning up too.

Paper cartridges from eley and another brand I can't remember.
Shot a few quail , rabbits and crippled ducks with one.

Ours was different and had I think a brass bolt through the hinge pin and a washer and nut of sorts. Ha

Couldn't wait to progressed up in shooting prowess to the BSA s/s 12 guage.
It had pits that you could sorta feel on the outside of the barrel in places and if you raised or lowered the muzzle you could hear the case rims tink from the slop falling forward or back.

How I ever survived child hood I will never know

Yes, they are rather pleasant little firearms. Unlike some modern .410s they usually have an adult length stock. I think those were more likely bulges, almost certainly caused by bore obstructions, rather than pitting. A barrel so thinned by pitting that it starts local swelling... No, I don't really want to think about that.

It is easier than with most shotguns to tighten up an off-the-face action, by a method more reputable and lasting than those of the spiritual heir of the traditional Gypsy horse-coper. You just clamp the barrel assembly up tight against the breech face and ream the hole for a larger diameter pivot pin. In an extreme case you might nearly align the holes with a round file or Dremel tool, and if the hole is counterbored for a screw-head a counterbore is the tool for enlarging it.

The old BSA doubles were very good guns for the money, and most if not all have a feature I have only ever seen in my 24ga Pieper. Not only were they chopper lumped, with half of each barrel lump integral with the tube, but the two were joined with a practically invisible vertical dovetail. It had the advantage of letting them use soft solder instead of brazing, and thus avoid any risk of impairing the steel. There had to be a snag somewhere, or they would all be doing it. It made the gun a little wider and heavier than it would otherwise need to be, but there was no harm in building a 24 like a light 20.

[NoAngel]

Would make a very cool .30 Badger.

[Outpost75]

Would make a very cool .30 Badger.

IF you keep pressure down to .32-20 or .38 Special levels </= ~16,000 psi

[NoAngel]

Capacity is almost identical as a 32/20. To the point that 32/20 load data is perfectly usable n
treat it just like a 32/20 and you're golden. Better than a 32/20 also as brass is so easy and cheap.

[barrabruce]

Sorry for the delay Big Eye bob
Yes that is a lovely set of barrels and work on that 410 indeed.
Way beyond my humble cut of cloth but I sure as hell can appreciate such things for what they are.

Even the 44-40 has some potential.

I'll have to find the proof marks on line and print them out and take them around with me to compare when I pick up these other rifles.
Takes time with permit to acquire delays and stuff over here.
Wish I could just walk in and buy a gun like in the old days.
It will take a while before I can slug the bore and find the bullet and case dimensions for my martini and cut 32-20 down to size for it.
Looked at some 310 ammo but they wanted like $75 for 30 shells....Baaahhhhh
So I bought a bag of 100 starline 32-20 brass for $76 much better rip off deal I figured.

About the same as Brisbane prices with expensive postage and there 20-30%
And they wonder why we don't support them much any more.

What is 1600 psi in CUP?
I know they are a different thing: But I have never been able to figure out a common denominator for comparison.
Just been lucky to fine loads of components listed as CUP and Psi in different manuals occasionally.

Cheers.
Bruce

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't recommend threatening the peace of two Commonwealth realms by importing anything as commonplace as a .410. But this website is a well-illustrated guide to what you might be looking for.

http://www.gunstar.co.uk/410-bore-ga...tguns-for-sale

I notice that quite a few of those light folding .410s are Spanish. I would feel a bit more comfortable with Belgian. Spanish guns are well made and reliably proved nowadays, and give extremely good value in the middle price range. But the bottom end of the Spanish market a lifetime or so ago was sometimes very inferior to the bottom of the Belgian one.

I wish in a way that I hadn't looked at the Gunstar website, though. There is a BSA .410 there, apparently in excellent condition and build with a new stock and barrel on a long Lee-Enfield action for £100! But they have given it a 23in. barrel, which means that it ranks with rifles, subject to approval and a "good reason to acquire". Had it been 24in. it would be a shotgun, for which the person is licenced, and can walk in and out with as many as he likes. It is also far less easy than a dismantled boxlock to stuff down your trousers. Imagine the hammering armed crime is taking from all this!

The informed answer on the relationship of psi (obtained from a piezo-electric strain gauge) and Copper (or Lead) Units of Pressure from a crusher gauge, is that they usually aren't very different, but sometimes they might be. One suggested conversion I remember (applicable to rifle rather than shotgun pressures) is that the piezo figure equals 1.52 times the CUP one, minus 18,000. For example with 40,000psi:

(1.52CUP x 40,000) -18,000 = 42,800psi

Nobody ever seems to make much of the rather more significant difference between the British and American systems for determining the CUP or LUP pressure. The American system puts a port and piston in the barrel adjacent to the chamber, which has a superficial air of logic about it. The British system, for rifles at least was to use a pressure gun in which a sliding bolt face crushed the copper cylinder. This was distorted by various extraneous elements, such as case shape, thickness and toughness, an oily chamber etc. But then these have exactly the same effect on the tendency of rifles to fail, which hardly ever occurs through a simple pressure burst of the barrel.

I would convert only a modern and substantial .410 to .32-20, and perhaps even more so the .30 Badger, for there is no telling the loads (good ones in some firearms) which generations yet unborn might use with that. The .44-40 also increases the area of thrust. I'd still favour the .32S&W Long, for which you might want to make a better-fitting firing-pin (not of complex shape in those guns), but shouldn't have to bush the hole.

Some original rook rifles for cartridges like the .300 were very much like the light .410s, and probably used the same forgings. My Army and Navy rook rifle is considerably stronger in the action than those, but it spend several decades bored out to .410 before I restored it as a .250 Rook Rifle, aka .255 Jeffery. This virtually is a shorter .25-20. But it is another one which, while it could be an excellent rimfire substitute, could increase pressure dramatically if unwisely loaded.

[BigEyeBob]

my 32-20 bsa martini is a factory chambered rifle in that calibre , but unfortunately the bore looks like a gravel road , I have arranged with Kieth Bridgeman from Sprinter arms to reline the barrel .I want to preserve the factory markings on the original barrel .
I also have a TAndrews martini actioned rifle with an ovate barrel ,has a top rib full length , it is supposed to be 380Rook as engraved on the barrel , but slugging it , it measures 360" , which makes it a 360 # 5 . Bore is pitted but there is plenty of rifling ,hope fully it will shoot ok. Ive made some cartridges from 38spl for it ,but was in too much of a hurry and bought a mould for the 380 bullet ,should have waited until the rifle arrived before jumping the gun so to speak.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, I know BSA chambered just a few of their small Martinis in .32-20, so it is well worth keeping in the original chambering. Unlike the Belgian .410s these could be loaded to the highest Winchester 92 pressures. It may be that all or most of them went to Australia, since in the UK there is a big gap between small and large game.

I would be a bit wary of putting a ½in. liner in those small barrel threads. One way around this would be to use a long rod fitting the bore or in bushings, and pull the cutter, stopping at the neck of the original chambering with the join covered by the case neck. This would be particularly useful in the UK, where a wide range of antique firearms up to 1939 (although not, unfortunately, the 32-20) are free of controls as long as they are in the original chambering. They could hardly quibble that if it was the original chamber.

I take it your picture is the Andrews? It is a beautiful rifle, presumably Cadet sized but in the style Greener adopted, with increased width and thread diameter, as their police guns and GP shotgun. In some rifle I would much prefer a symmetrical barrel, but this is one that is unlikely to get very hot. I think the .360 No5 can virtually be considered an inside lubed .380 Long, and the cases almost sure to be interchangeable. So you can consider yourself lucky, apart from having to buy a .380 to use that mould.

Are there any indications whether it is entirely British or Australian, or partly Belgian? The latter included everything from local ironmongers ordering guns with their names on, to the most reputable gunmakers using Belgian barrel tubes or forgings.

[BigEyeBob]

Cant really tell if its Belgian made action all the proof marks say British , the action is one of those that comes apart in individual pieces unlike the BSA manufactured "unit" construction actions ,where all the internals are mounted in an internal frame . I did dis assemble it for a full clean , but was a task getting it back together.
Yes the 360#5 is basically the 380 with an inside bullet , the mould I have is 378" heeled bullet so I think its too much of a squeeze . I plan to turn up a swage die and swage them back to 362 "and see how the fly . Our good friend at CBE told me that swaging down cast projectiles too much makes them do strange things, not sure what he meant by that . I have read a piloted swage die is better for swaging bullets down by larger amounts .ie the swage is bored the same diameter as the original projectile for the first section and has a gradual taper to the final size.I will try that method . In the mean time my 32-20 barrel will head off for its reline ,Keith will bore out the chamber larger than the liner and make the new chamber and liner in one piece . While this is happening Im working frantically on my 25-35 Martini project ,polishing the action frame and parts for blueing .