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Thread: LLA Leading Problem

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    LLA Leading Problem

    Hey! I FINALLY got a tube of LLA a couple of days ago. Unfortunately it arrived with a large crack in the container and it was a solid mass of...something disgusting looking. Anyways, after a little perusing I found several threads that mentioned mineral spirits+old LLA=good lube. I gave that a shot and got AWEFUL leading in my Marlin 336 (30-30). I was using 8 grains of Red dot, which should theoretically have been pushing my lee 170gn FN around 1300 fps. Was I just pushing it too fast? Is it possible to use too much of a thinning agent? All the places I've read have addressed using too much lube, but I haven't found any that have reported using too little? Anyone had a similar experience? I'm letting a batch with a thicker mixture dry as we speak, but I thought I'd ask in the meantime.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I've never gotten leading using alox. I've shot 158gr lee round nose boolits tumble lubed and got no leading. Perhaps maybe too much thinning? There are others here that are way more knowledgable that can help.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    In my experience, in everything from .223 to .444 Ben's Liquid lube, or thinned alox works. Perfectly. As long as the boolit is big enough.

    If your boolit is undersized, or swagged down in the loading process you will have leading.

    I learned the hard way, trying to shoot .312 185 gr gas checked that had been run through a .311 lee sizer to crimp on the gas checks. That was actually putting out boolits at .310. The Yugo SKS = .312. .312 will do, .310 will lead 3/4 of the barrel in less than 50 rounds, with **** accuracy.

    In my case I honed out the Lee die to do an honest .3125 and henceforth no leading, no problems, and awesome accuracy.

    But some things you can not blame on the lube. Some you can.

    So the only way to know for sure is to do the due dillegence. All of it.

    That means chamber cast or slug barrel or both. That means making sure bullets enter the barrel 2 thousandths bigger than groove, or 3.

    As for your powder charge, I would not consider that a "Hot" load, but if you are actually even a little bit faster that load might need a gas check. Something to consider.

    Been where you are, none of this is criticism. This is plain talk, gods honest truth as I know it. What you do with it is up to you.

    Getting all this stuff figured out for yourself for the first time can be a real uphill battle. So, I have done what I can to help. Best of luck to you.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Cowboy_Dan's Avatar
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    The above advise is all good. Could you walk us through your process? Good possibility the devil's in the details.
    "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for everyone to believe anything on insufficient evidence."
    -W. K. Clifford "The Ethics of Belief"

    "They hate you if you're clever, and they despise a fool."
    -John Lennon "A Working Class Hero"

  5. #5
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy_Dan View Post
    The above advise is all good. Could you walk us through your process? Good possibility the devil's in the details.
    Bore slugs at .3085, Boolits are around .3095 so maybe that's my problem. I just got a chunk of LLA about the size of the end of my thumb and a capful of pain thinner and shook them around with 50-70 bullets in a zip-lock bag. Left to dry two days (was humid and a bit cold in the shop) on wax paper. Loaded up 50 over the aforementioned load of red dot and shot. After noticing that stuff wasn't really connecting with a 2x2 sheet of plywood at 40 yards I took a look at the barrel and it was leaded out the wazoo.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master



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    Paint thinner and mineral spirits are two different animals, probably your problem.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    In my experience, in everything from .223 to .444 Ben's Liquid lube, or thinned alox works. Perfectly. As long as the boolit is big enough.

    If your boolit is undersized, or swagged down in the loading process you will have leading.

    I learned the hard way, trying to shoot .312 185 gr gas checked that had been run through a .311 lee sizer to crimp on the gas checks. That was actually putting out boolits at .310. The Yugo SKS = .312. .312 will do, .310 will lead 3/4 of the barrel in less than 50 rounds, with **** accuracy.

    In my case I honed out the Lee die to do an honest .3125 and henceforth no leading, no problems, and awesome accuracy.

    But some things you can not blame on the lube. Some you can.

    So the only way to know for sure is to do the due dillegence. All of it.

    That means chamber cast or slug barrel or both. That means making sure bullets enter the barrel 2 thousandths bigger than groove, or 3.

    As for your powder charge, I would not consider that a "Hot" load, but if you are actually even a little bit faster that load might need a gas check. Something to consider.

    Been where you are, none of this is criticism. This is plain talk, gods honest truth as I know it. What you do with it is up to you.

    Getting all this stuff figured out for yourself for the first time can be a real uphill battle. So, I have done what I can to help. Best of luck to you.
    Excellent advice ! ! ! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirtythirty View Post
    Hey! I FINALLY got a tube of LLA a couple of days ago. Unfortunately it arrived with a large crack in the container and it was a solid mass of...something disgusting looking. Anyways, after a little perusing I found several threads that mentioned mineral spirits+old LLA=good lube. I gave that a shot and got AWEFUL leading in my Marlin 336 (30-30). I was using 8 grains of Red dot, which should theoretically have been pushing my lee 170gn FN around 1300 fps. Was I just pushing it too fast? Is it possible to use too much of a thinning agent? All the places I've read have addressed using too much lube, but I haven't found any that have reported using too little? Anyone had a similar experience? I'm letting a batch with a thicker mixture dry as we speak, but I thought I'd ask in the meantime.


    Was your bullet gas checked ?
    You may have to go to .311 or even .312" to stop the leading in your Marlin.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Also, are you flaring necks on brass? Is the brass shaving lead off? Using a Lyman M die?

    This is one of those "hidden" tricks that are not readily apparent until you do a lot of reading. With Jacketed bullets, you do not have to do anything with the neck. Under pressure the neck will spring out around the jacketed bullet allowing it to be seated and holding it in place.

    With cast you need to either flare the neck slightly. Lee sells a universal flaring tool, very reasonable. Some use a pair of needle nose pliers and a twist and push to put a light flair on the neck. I have used a center punch with a nice angle to do the same.

    How you do it is not so important as doing something to allow the neck to have a chance to slip up and spring out.

    Lyman M die has its fans also. I have not gone that route because you need a different tool for every caliber.

    But that is just one more possible point.

    Crimp is another, too much crimp can squeeze the bullet, forcing it into a smaller size.

    Might want to try a slightly larger bullet, and pay close attention during the seating process.

    Also may want to try some ATF for that leading. I like Dextron III because it was on hand. To that I often add a few squirts of "Goo Gone" to an ounce of ATF and use very tight patch's.

    Wet patch, run it through, wait a few minutes and follow it with a couple of dry ones. Repeat.

    When you stop seeing dark come out of the bore take a look.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    There is instructions that come with the bottle of Alox - how to thin it
    Regards
    John

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Mineral spirit is white spirit in he UK.use it to thin down lla haven't had any leading in 308/3300/223/357 .are you lubing again after sizing?

  12. #12
    Boolit Man
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    Yeah, shot three more today with the heavier lube and there was a bit of leading again. Thinking its probably a too-small Boolit since I have a microgroove and the Boolits are only .3095 (only .001 over bore) Thinking about just getting a .301 sizer and PPing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by robg View Post
    Mineral spirit is white spirit in he UK.use it to thin down lla haven't had any leading in 308/3300/223/357 .are you lubing again after sizing?
    Actually not sizing at all, thought I would probably need all the size I had.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy iplaywithnoshoes's Avatar
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    Definitely undersized. I ran undersized bullets through my .45-70 (.458-.459) with light loads and got horrific leading at the muzzle and throat. I run .460-462 through the gun and little to no leading can be seen.

    I run 170gr lee gas checked bullets in my .308 with two layers of LLA at 2100 fps. Very easy to clean and no evidence of leading after 50 rounds; great accuracy too!

    Gas cutting due to imperfect bases or undersizing is probably responsible for a good chunk of leading problems with reloaders.

    shoe
    le ebin physics man

  14. #14
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    Also, are you flaring necks on brass? Is the brass shaving lead off? Using a Lyman M die?

    This is one of those "hidden" tricks that are not readily apparent until you do a lot of reading. With Jacketed bullets, you do not have to do anything with the neck. Under pressure the neck will spring out around the jacketed bullet allowing it to be seated and holding it in place.

    With cast you need to either flare the neck slightly. Lee sells a universal flaring tool, very reasonable. Some use a pair of needle nose pliers and a twist and push to put a light flair on the neck. I have used a center punch with a nice angle to do the same.

    How you do it is not so important as doing something to allow the neck to have a chance to slip up and spring out.

    Lyman M die has its fans also. I have not gone that route because you need a different tool for every caliber.

    But that is just one more possible point.

    Crimp is another, too much crimp can squeeze the bullet, forcing it into a smaller size.

    Might want to try a slightly larger bullet, and pay close attention during the seating process.

    Also may want to try some ATF for that leading. I like Dextron III because it was on hand. To that I often add a few squirts of "Goo Gone" to an ounce of ATF and use very tight patch's.

    Wet patch, run it through, wait a few minutes and follow it with a couple of dry ones. Repeat.

    When you stop seeing dark come out of the bore take a look.
    Ok, tried one more time with that advice in mind. Loaded 10 rounds and flared case necks with the pliers as suggested. Reduced powder all the way to minimum (6.5 gr for 1100 fps or something). Little to no leading. Am tentatively hopeful that the lack of case flaring may have been the problem. Will load the rest of the brass up and see what happens. Thank you guys so much for the help, really appreciate it!

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Whatyaknow, even the blind pig finds an acorn now and then. Got lucky I reckon.

    The Lee Universal flaring die is not expensive, comes with 2 size cones, one for large, one for small. Very handy tool for the cost. Depriming die is another one in the same vein.

    I think I would try some bullets as cast without sizing. You just might gain a thousandth enough to help.

    Last, it has been my experience that 2 or 3 very thin light coats of alox especially thinned alox works better than one thicker coat.

    With 3 light coats you should have to look real hard to see a color change between lubed and unlubed. But they might not have as much "shine" surface looks fuzzy.

    But you don't need enough to see tan/brown color coming through.

    Try maybe 10 drops on 50 freshly cast bullets and swirl them. Then open then to the air, maybe place in front of a small fan for half an hour and repeat. After the third coat spill onto window screen, wire mesh, or a pop can flat, cardboard box and let them dry for 45 min. Once they stop sticking to your fingers load them.

    I also like to take an old towel, put a drop or 2 of my thinned mix on a spot on the towel. Place the loaded bullet nose on that spot, close it around the nose and give it a twist. This leaves noses nice bright shiny and smooth. Consistency is the key. If you do it once, do it exactly the same for all.

    You can DO this! Your on the road, taken steps, learning, enjoying. Enjoy the journey. Knowledge can be a heady thing. And being able to make your own ammo from empty brass with a few basics. That is powerful stuff there man. Be careful.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master
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    ThirtyThirty,

    Based on your comments, I think this home-made tool ( and a .312" dia. cast bullet ) would eliminate about 99% of your leading problems .



    The tool is made from a hardened bolt that was .372 " in diameter. I chucked the bolt in my drill press and took a good quality flat file and shaped the bolt. I fitted a piece of American walnut to the expander plug.










    Last edited by Ben; 05-09-2017 at 08:39 AM.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master


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    Ben, if I ever get back to Alabamy (wife has family way down south), I'm going to look you up, and buy you lunch.

    Your pictorials, and step-by-step instructions for various procedures, have "learned me good", as we say here in Okie-land. I have been reloading since the late 1980's, but still learn tidbits from you.

    I certainly appreciate your efforts.

    Paul

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master
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    You're very kind with your words.
    You're always welcome here at my place.
    My son lives in Tulsa.

    Ben

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Now why did I not see that 4 years ago?

    Rock solid Ben.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master PBSmith's Avatar
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    Ben, is the leading nose of your tool actually expanding the case like an M die does, or is this strictly for flaring the case mouth?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check