Lee full length sizing die/decapper question

[jmac2112]

This is my first post, so I hope I'm observing proper etiquette here. I will try to remember to type "boolit" instead of "bullet"!

I've been reloading for a little while, and I've just started casting my own boolits for .45 (Lee 452-230TC) using wheel weight lead. I've also been powder coating with Super Durable Wet Black from Powder Buy The Pound. I'm sizing my boolits to .4535 (my barrel slugs at .4525). I'm having a little bit of a problem stuffing these boolits into the brass without shaving off some of the PC on one side. It seems to help if I push the boolit in really slooooowly. I'm using the Lee carbide die set (4 dies) in a Lee Classic Turret Press. I've already bought the regular taper crimp die to replace the FCD, so no more swaging of my boolits during the final step. And I have backed out my seating die to the point where it does not try to crimp at the same time as it is seating. I also filled in the end of the seating "ram" (or whatever it's called) with epoxy so that I have a flat surface pushing on the top of my TC boolits.

It has occurred to me, though, that it would be nice if the decapper die did not narrow the diameter of the brass to .468 right at the start. By the time I stuff the boolit into the case, that diameter has swollen to .473-.474. I've pulled a few boolits and found that I'm losing about .0005 because of this (partly because my lead is pretty soft). Anyway, would it make sense to open up the carbide ring a little so that it sized the brass to, say, .470? And how would one do that? I don't have anything in my workshop that will cut carbide.

I'll stop there for now. Thanks in advance for any help!

[OS OK]

Sounds like you need to bell your cases...
You can get the Lee Universal Expander Die, comes with the two inserts top left. Then you can order NOE expanders to custom diameters for other rounds. Here I'm set up to experiment with a couple rifles.
You can also use the expander in RCBS Cowboy Dies...they are oversize for lead boolits.


Attachment 194349

[Bzcraig]

No. Carbide is too hard to try and 'adjust' it. Sounds like you need to screw in your powder through expanding die (assuming your using all Lee dies) to get more flare to your case mouth. This is definitely a die adjustment problem. The sizing/decapping die resizes to saami specs (ideally) to insure proper feeding in auto loaders. Most die sets are made for jacketed bullets, just one of the things casters must deal with. You can get an "M" die type expander from NOE if you feel it's necessary but I have not felt a need to do so loading 45 ACP with Lee dies.

[David2011]

Jmac,

Welcome to Castboolits! The bore sounds like you might be shooting a Single Action Army or reproduction of one. If that's the case your wheel weight boolits are harder than the original Colt boolits by a good measure. The original boolits were probably 20:1 lead/tin with no antimony. The hardness of my 20:1 is under 8.0. Clip on wheel weights (COWW) run around 11.5 with no additives so I really don't think hardness is the issue. As OS OK said, you need to bell and expand the cases to accommodate the oversized bore. A taper crimp is ok for low velocity loads but revolver cartridges normally are roll crimped. If your roll crimp die isn't big enough to crimp without swaging the case and boolit down then you may need to talk to Lee about a custom die. Their charge for a custom die is surprisingly low.

Adding more thoughts. Some things are intended to be implied but didn't get said. The case expander should expand the case to about .002" under the boolit size as sized for your barrel and it needs to expand it all the way to the bottom of the seated boolit. You need some neck tension on the boolit. A slip fit will not make accurate loads and as you already know an undersized case will make for an undersized boolit that is inaccurate and will lead the barrel. The crimp not only keeps the boolit from moving in the case but also helps build pressure for consistent ignition, necessary for accuracy and low standard deviation.


David

[jmac2112]

Thanks for the replies! Some more info, and a few more questions:

I'm loading for a Sig P220. Does .4525 sound bigger than it should? I slugged the barrel with a pure lead plug and measured with a micrometer.

I have played with the flare on my cases using the Lee powder through expander die, trying everything from a little to a lot (measuring from .477 to .481 at the mouth). That doesn't seem to make a difference regarding the PC shaving issue. Would the Lee Universal Expander Die work better? Or the "M" type expander (I think that's a Lyman product, right?)? I'm not familiar with how those expanders might differ from the one I'm using.

Thanks again!

[runfiverun]

they will help.
they simulate the bullet going in the case and put a flair on the mouth at the same time.

your basically taking the case that is set up for 451 diameter and stepping it up for a 452 or 453 diameter.
the LEE carbide sizer is what it is.
measure the internal diameter of a sized case to see exactly what your fighting here.
you might want both a new size die and the expander tool.

[country gent]

You can "adjust" you dies carbide ring, but not by normall ways. It takes special compounds to cut carbide. Another thing to remember is that brass varies by neck thickness from lot to lot and manufacturer to manufacturer so adjust itng the die to make thick brass right may leave thin necks in useable. To polish carbide or lap it you will want a couple grades of diamond lapping compound. A snugly fitted hardwood dowel and coated with diamond compound is used to polish remove the carbide. A wedge can be fitted to remove wear if needed. Turn the dowel slow with a fast back and forth feed rate so the polish lines cross over each other at around 45*. Work this cleaning and measuring often.

[jmac2112]

Thanks again to all for the good information! I'm liking the sound of the Lyman M die, from what I'm reading here and elsewhere. I like the sound of the NOE expanders, too, but the M die might help the boolits go in the cases straighter. I have two questions about the M die, however:

1) Can you order the M die with different size expander plugs to fit your precise needs? In other words, do they offer ones that expand to .451, .452, .453, etc.?

2) Will I need a second press? It sounds like I will be using 1) the Lee decapper/sizing die, 2) the Lyman M die, 3) the Lee powder through die (backed out so that it doesn't bell the case), 4) the Lee bullet seating die (backed out so that it applies no crimp), and 5) the Lee taper crimp die. I've only got four holes to work with, so....

I do love this hobby, but there's always one more thing to buy!

[243winxb]

And I have backed out my seating die to the point where it does not try to crimp at the same time as it is seating.

This is a good idea, but may not help using a fat bullet.

If the inside diameter of the seating die is removing the bell to soon, bullets get shaved.

The fix is enlarging the dies inside diameter.

The dies inside diameter can be measured by over flaring a case mouth, taking measurements on the mouth, insert a tiny bit into the die. Measure again. Adjust die if needed.

Just dont remove the crimp ring.

[JohnH]

Try this. Back your seating die off the crimp and see if the boolit is still being scrapped. I have a very similar problem with both 45 ACP and 44 Magnum Lee dies. The cure was to get a crimping die and separate the seating and crimping operations. I've had no problems with either since doing this a couple years back. While I've had no problems with 45 Colt, I like the results so much that I recently bought a crimping die and began doing this with those as well. Lee has two crimping dies, one the Factory Crimp die and the other a basic seating die without the seating stem. I use the latter.