Olde Eynsford verses Swiss

[BrentD]

Kurt, that's the point, if you don't break center each and every time, a moa load won't keep you from a miss...

Actually, it very well might keep you from a miss and that is the point.

[Don McDowell]

Counting on a moa load to save you a miss because of bad trigger breaks is a false hope.

[BrentD]

Obviously, you would know since you shoot a 3 MOA rifle and miss more than anyone.

[Lead pot]

Hey Kurt,
Really, I'm pretty happy with people using what ever makes them feel good.
If someone is getting results they are happy with, I say they are good to go.
After all, match shooting is competition.

OK, next persons turn........

Michael I couldn't agree with you more, that is what it should be.

I can see where this thread is heading and I will regret posting my effort testing these two powders and posting what I have seen on my targets.
Kurt

[Gunlaker]

Kurt it is interesting to hear your results. It has also worked well for Kenny as he seems to be using it in the .45-110 these days. I've yet to try that trick in mine.

I actually use OE 1.5 in my .40-65 Shiloh where it performs very well for mid-range. It's actually giving good velocity very consistent velocities with 15 shot SD's under 4 fps. I'm confident that this rifle, if there were no operator error, could comfortably hold the 10 ring on all mid-range targets from 200 to 600.

In my other rifles I've been using Swiss as it's working better for me, but I don't do enough load development to be confident that I'll think the same thing by next year.

With respect to accuracy, I'll always chase it as far as I can go. I do spend more time on perfecting my hold and trigger break than on ammunition experiments. I think both are necessary to get the very highest scores. Scores are usually pretty close when you look at the top 5 in most matches.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt just take your best load and run with it. You'll have plenty of time to mess with retesting stuff after you get back from the Montana journey.

[country gent]

More important is the competitors, confidence" level in his gun, load, and abilities. A good shooter with confidence can do much more with less.

[Lead pot]

I know what my rifle can do C-G with out a good load and what I'm able to with that good load is getting in question for me
I just finished unloading the Jeep and the spotter board still had the pins stuck in it. Here is the 600 yard results as close as my Wife could stick the pins in the paper. The vertical when I got down in the pit was about 2" looking at the 1 inch pastors for judgement. I did not adjust for conditions or center I just wanted to get on paper and see a group and more important to me, the vertical. The top was shot with the 1.5 swiss and the last 3 with OE after a sight adjustment to get away from the swiss group and a effort to hit center. Those 3 shots are under 3" and closer to 2" I cant go by the rings on the spotting board because it's to small and the pins are to big
In reality both loads I shot on this target will work.
Kurt

[BrentD]

Nice shooting Kurt. It's always great when you can't make the group really representative because it's tighter than a MOP (Minute of Pin).

[Gunlaker]

That looks really good Kurt. You definitely need to find some smaller pins for that spotting board .

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Take the load that made that little 3 leaf clover and run with it.

[Lead pot]

Nah! back hurts to much to be doing any running

[Don McDowell]

LOL ok load it on your 4 wheeler and take off the .

[Distant Thunder]

I posted this on the Shiloh forum and I'll repost it here because these results best explain why I use Swiss 1 1/2 for my serious target work. I will explain after this.



It was another well run and fun match at Lodi. We did have a little bit of rain Saturday morning during the 1st relay, but as soon as I was done shooting the sun came out and the other relays enjoyed dry conditions! It figures !

I found the wind a bit challenging at times, others apparently didn't notice any wind or at least it didn't blow them all over the target. There seemed to be enough reversals that almost everyone got caught at least once. And one shooter decided to create his own style of reversal and turned his windage the wrong way until one leaked off the right side of his target. In the end it wasn't enough of a mistake to give the rest of us mere mortals a chance to catch him. Some guys have all the luck...., and very good spotters (Bob Wood and Mike Metzel).

The top end looked like this after the smoke cleared:

1st - Brent Danielson 544-7X

2nd - Bob Walline 529-10x

3rd James Kluskens (JK2) 525-7x *

4th Jim Kluskens (JK1) 518-8X

5th Rick Chianelli 515-6X

6th Sam Thompson 504-3X

7th Tom Sermersheim 501-2X

8th Jeff Heeler 492-6X

9th Paul Gritmacker 490-3X

10th Bill Barglof 487-6X

There were 25 shooters all together but I'll end it at 10th place to keep this from getting too long.

It sure was a great weekend and a fun group od shooters to be with. Thanks to Mark Schuenke, Ed Force, and Cliff Gregg for keeping everything running smooth and safe.

The Lodi range is one of the best I've ever shot on and the club continues to expand it and make improvements. If you haven't ever joined us or haven't joined us in a while you are missing out on some fun times. The next match is in June, a long-range match, you should join us if you can.

* This score made my weekend. Congratulations, son!

JK1



Ok now some explaining. Toward the end of my shooting season last year I was coming to the end of my then current lot of Swiss 1 1/2. I had maybe a pound and half left when I cleaned my Hepburn and put her away for the long winter.

Then this spring as beginning to warm up enough to venture out I knew wasn't going to have enough of the old lot to shoot the first match on Mother's Day weekend, the above match. This is because my son, James, was planning on shooting with me in that match and I had decided last fall I was going to put on my Hepburn shooting PPB along with me. He had been shooting my old C. Sharps .45-70 with the Lyman 457135 Postell bullet over various charges of 1 1/2. I just didn't think he was reaching his potential with that combination. So while 1.5 pounds would be enough for one of us to shoot the match it would not make enough 83.0 grain loads for both of us to shoot the match. I didn't want to have him shooting one lot and me another because we'd have to keep them separated and that could be difficult when we are sharing a rifle and most everything else to shoot the match.

So the logical answer was to just switch to the new lot for both of us. I checked the weight of the new against the old, I would have to increase my powder measurer setting plus 4.3 grains to get the same 83.0 grains weight. The new lot was less dense. In the past this is the way I have always done it, keep the same weight, adjust the volume and compression as needed. There has usually been less of a difference than the 4.3, but I just wasn't going to have time to test the load and much less to start adjusting anything. So I set the measurer to give me 83.0 grains by weight and I decided to make a small adjustment in my seating depth to have a little less compression on the greater volume. Just .025", leaving the bullets .100" in the cases instead of the .125". I changed nothing else and never fired a test shot before the match. I just loaded 176 rounds and headed for Lodi.

The first match of the year there is always a little getting used to being in the saddle again and James had never pulled the trigger on my Hepburn before his first sighter at 300 yards, so there was some getting used to it for him. In the end the rifle and Swiss preformed as they were expected, absolutely fantastic.

As to the fouling, in the hot dry wind on Sunday when I couldn't seem to drink enough water to make spit we just wetted the patches a bit more and stayed with the 1 wet, 1 dry for wiping. There was a time or two during the 500 yard on Sunday before I added water to the patches when things started to tighten up near the muzzle and I ran a 2nd wet before the dry one. I just keep a feel on my bore as I wipe and adjust as needed, the rifle just kept dropping them in the center. I don't have any problem with the fouling as long as I keep an eye on it. If you don't pay attention you'll end up in trouble one way or another, so I pay attention to what my rifle is telling me on each and every shot and James did the same. It works for us.

The match results above show why Swiss 1 1/2 is what I use, not only is it accurate but it is easy as hell to go from one lot to the next. That is the way I have been doing it since I switched to 1 1/2 on the advise from a national and world champion shooter many years ago. I have never regretted the move and never looked elsewhere for powder. For me Swiss 1 1/2 works and works every time.

Jim

[Old-Win]

Jim, Interesting the way you do it and we know how successful you and JK2 have been. I've been doing it by volume and keeping my compression around .050 to .070". Makes sense that there is the same amount of energy in equal weights of powder. Next change in cases, I'll try it by weight.
We had a conflict here at Harris or Mike and I would have been at Lodi last weekend. We're going to have a conflict for the Creedmoor match as well as we head for the Q the next day and wouldn't have enough turn around time. Did Cliff mention how the sign ups are coming for the All America and Creedmoor Challenge? I see that our shooting partner finished 7th at his first mid-range match. Good for him. Bob Saathoff

[Distant Thunder]

Bob,

Cliff didn't really give a clear answer when I asked about how the turnout was looking for the Cup, so I can't say. For me the 4 day thing isn't going to happen though I would like go for the Cup match. I won't do both, that I know.

Yes I noticed the conflicting schedules when I checked on the schedule at Harris to see if a date might work for me to finally get over there. Brent and I talked late last year about doing one of your matches together, but I'm now thinking that isn't likely going to happen.

There were a number of people who made a good showing for themselves last weekend, names not heard before called out for recognition for shooting in the top 3 at each of the distances. This was especially good to see. Tom had the 2nd highest 2-day score at 600, beat me by a point. I like it best when the winners aren't known before the match begins.

That's the thinking, x number of grains = x amount of energy and that the actual volume is just a part of the process and matters little. I have not chronographed the new stuff to see if the fps are the same, but it shot maybe a little better than the old lot so I ain't too worried about it.

With the old lot I started at 82.0 grains and went up to 86.0, 83.0 gave the best groups with my 520 grain PPB. It works at least as well with 83.0 of the new lot.

I had to go through the same shift with my .40-65 and the 382 grain PPB I'm shooting in it. With the old 1 1/2 I found 72.0 grains to be best. When I switched to the new lot I again loaded 72.0 grains and got excellent results. I have every bit of confidence in 1 1/2 Swiss doing it this way. With paper patched bullets there is no need to compress Swiss 1 1/2 a bunch, but I've not seen were adjusting the compression a little to maintain the same weight hurts at all. I'm sure it could be different for other rifles.

This was an especially fun match for me having James finally shot very well. He was quite surprised when they called his name for 3rd overall and they made it clear it was James, not Jim Kluskens. Which I think may have been a little dig at me! It couldn't have turnout any better any other way as far as I'm concerned.

I think it would impossible to get him to shoot any other rifle now and he knows just how accurate those paper wrapped bullets can be. He hit the X-ring 3 times in his last for shots at 600 yards, the 2nd X hit the spotter and even his last shot, a 10, wasn't more than 5 inches below the 3 Xs. I don't know what he and Jeff had for conditions but I know it wasn't a light and steady wind! It was a switchy S.O.B. when I was spotting for him at 500 and him for me at 600. It was just crank and shoot. Fun as hell!

Hope to see you guys in September then. Take care and shoot well!

[semtav]

[QUOTE=Lead pot;4029787]
This morning I went out between rains and a mild 10 O-Clock 6 mph wind
[/QUOTE

I don't know anything about those powders other than what Brent told me, but tell me more about the rain !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lead pot]

Brian all I can tell you about rain and that is it's wet If you need some just do the rain dance to turn it your way we have had enough, over 12" counting this mornings collection in the last 10-12 days. Rivers are up most of the back water on the Mississippi just have trees showing, no dirt. That's all I can tell you about rain

[semtav]

yea , Forsyth's not bad and Billings has been getting lots, but up where I'm working we have had 1/4 inch all spring. season is about over.

[Lead pot]

We sure could use your bug bomber in these parts. The Tic's are thick this year from the mild winter and heavy rains. Took two deer tics off and had to get blood tests plus the 3 large wood tics mowing grass.