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Thread: Olde Eynsford verses Swiss

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Just got back from the range with My Daughter. We shot in the rain for 1-1/2 hrs not my choice it was her call and I made her clean her own rifle LOL. I will re clean it when she goes home. I'm going to get a membership this fall for Rapids. I go past there often during the summer and it's only 4 hrs north close enough to run up for a couple days testing loads and that range is shielded pretty well for east/west winds. It's a bummer when you use matches to do the long range load developments.
    I will miss out on the Creedmoor Cup. I hope they will do it again next year. You and your rifle is my type of game. It brings out the shooters ability only not a team effort where the spotter seldom gets the credit.


    Don, forgot; I use 2-1/2" patches and they are on the tight side.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    The loads for the top 10 scores at the nationals are always posted in the results, if the competitors are wiling to devulge them. In BPCR and BPTR, that is normally the case. When I have looked, because some internet expert has often and loudly claimed otherwise, I find that on the order of 90-95% of the top ten shooters use Swiss. Usually 1.5f but sometimes 2f. I don't recall any 3f, but maybe Moritz or someone out there uses a different granulation.

    Of course, relying on just that information alone can lead to everyone doing what everyone else does and a better alternative might never rise to the top. However, OE has been available now for quite a few years. Early on, they were also very big on being sure it was handed out as door prizes at lots of matches, so it was available and lots of people, myself included, have tried it. We would all like to shoot USA powder. And for sure we all want an edge that any superior component might provide. But OE hasn't been that edge for almost, but not quite, everyone.

    Scores really took a jump when Swiss became available and it spread through the games like a wildfire, replacing the then king of the hill, Goex Cartridge. There was no similar jump in scores when OE arrived, and it has not spread rapidly at all. It also hasn't gone away, so it's good powder, but maybe not the best, at least for competitions like BPCR and BPTR. It might be better for CLA (I would like to try more of it for that purpose) and perhaps for hunting, but that has yet to be determined.

    When a new shooter asks for some help with a load, I always strongly recommend Swiss 1.5 fg, lest the newbie get discouraged and give up early. Then, if the mood strikes, go try the OE or something else, but begin with what seems to hold the throne before crossing over into less well proven country. There are some really, really good new shooters coming up the ranks now that are doing well following that recipe.

    But before anyone takes the dive on a particular brand of powder, do some research and see how many are shooting it, and then see how many that are shooting really well are using it. All of this is available in the various match reports.

  3. #23
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Brent, I could never understand why more top ranked shooters have not been using KIK. I have found it to be a better burning and less fouling powder (the 2010 lot, not the 2004) than Swiss.
    Here is an example of 50 consecutive rounds of 1.5F and FFg KIK shot in a 38-55 out accurately to 500m with minor vernier adjustments than my previous settings with no tubing or patching...
    one water cotton ball and 3 dry:
    Regards
    John

  4. #24
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    They don't use KIK because the contest is not about fouling, but about scoring points. I could not care less about fouling. I do care about points and thus accuracy and precision. Swiss has it over all the other powders. I have not gone back in the books and looked for KIK shooters to see how they scored, but I am quite confident in saying, probably not very well. In the end, that's all that matters.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have been shooting old E in my paper patch loads and my rifle seems to really like it. 2F specifically. 1.5 not so much. I did a quick test of Swiss 82 grains and the cci br2 primer. Didn't put them on paper but shot 15 rounds at rams and only knocked over 2 of them. I know it's was a very informal test and when the season is over I am going to revisit the Swiss for sure but I am pretty happy with the old E.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    The main thing to shooting well is finding something that works and sticking with it. That's why folks that have shot Swiss for several years stick with it, and most won't even try anything new, they have no reason to. Then on the other hand you have young guns like Ian and a couple others that started out working with Olde Eynsford and are about 1 animal short of making master in less than 2 years shooting..
    Find the load you and your match rifle can both live with stick with it. Use a different gun to experiment around with other powders, bullets etc.
    If it ain't broke , don't fix it.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Don, If it broke don't fix it is always the advice I give when I'm asked about something. But the way I look at despite my advice given is there is room for improvement look for a way to fix it

  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Kurt that's always the down fall, wondering well what if...
    I am coming to the conclusion that if a person has a load that will consistently shoot 3 moa or less, that would be good enough to win most matches anywhere anytime. Mental preparedness will do as much or more for good scores as any. In the "team" contests, your spotter having a bad day, or gets to mentally wandering around following lil animals, will do more to wreck your score than what brand of powder you choose. Get some weird mirage and wind tricks going and the frustration can mount even further... Rifle stock develop's a hair line crack, firing pin breaks ,barrel set screw backs out, sight staff loosen's in the drum. These are all little things that can plant seeds of doubt in a given load.
    At this point in the season, go with the load you know shoots the best everywhere you've taken it, and run with it.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Don I cant go with 3 MOA with my rifles I use for a match. All of my rifles short of one will shoot better then 3 MOA baring conditions. I put my limit for better then 1.5. 3 moa with just a twitch at the wrong time could be a miss off a critter or a 5' paper at long range.

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Twitch at the wrong time, unseen shift in wind or mirage, a little cloud coming over, or the sun peeking thru cloud cover, a case stretching,,, there are tons of things that will make a moa load shoot a miss..
    But if you know the gun will consistently shoot 3 moa or less, that will keep the shots inside the 9 ring or on the rams.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  11. #31
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    I don't know any serious shooter that is even slightly interested in a 3 MOA rifle. That wont hold the rams, nor the turkeys or much of anything else. It certainly won't win a target match.

    All the best shooters I know have tried OE, because everyone of them wants any additional edge they can get. But most of them couldn't find anything there with OE. It does work for a few people, but not many. Look at how fast Swiss replaced Goex Cartridge and then look at how long OE has been around and it is still second fiddle to Swiss.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Don, I would have a hard time going on lime with a 3 MOA rifle or load. Lord knows that I put my self out of the top running several times by me fat fingering the trigger or some other thumb thing like using a 1000 sight setting for 900 or a 600 for the 800 and shoot two rounds in the deep grass where the spotter cant see the impact or not tighten the eye cup after a sight change. Yes this is what the top shooters don't often do, they are more disciplined on line then I am and this makes them better then I am. I need all the help I can get.

    I spotted for Brent and #1 Jim at long range matches and I watched them close and I see that they are like a machine behind that buttstock except maybe Brent he makes me curl my toes when waiting for the conditions are like a friendly dogs tail and when I tell him to take the shot seconds tick by like hours before he breaks the shot. He does not get in a hurry. This is something I have a hard time controlling and having a 3 moa rifle or load will take me out of the running when the rings on the target below are. A 3moa rifle will put me in the 8 ring with a good center break or even the 7.

    1000 yard Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
    X ring . . . . . . . 10.00 10 ring . . . . . . . 20.00 9 ring . . . . . . . . 30.00 8 ring . . . . . . . . 44.00
    7 ring . . . . . . . . . . 60.00 6 area . . . 72x72 square
    Last edited by Lead pot; 04-29-2017 at 11:24 AM.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Yeah, I'm sorta slow on the trigger

    But I don't break a bad shot very often.

  14. #34
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    Four years ago I had a few phone conversations Chris Hodgdon, Olde Eynsford was just out. I asked him to provide me a case of his new powder to hand out at my American Creedmoor Cup match. I assured him that there would be some of the countries best BPTR riflemen there.
    He agreed and sent me a case of Olde Eynsford FF. I passed it out among the competitors, 2-3 lbs each for people to try. I tried loading it in all kinds of ways (I'm not new at this) and found it promising, but did not find the confident loads I wanted. Close, but always a flyer or two that made me cringe. I got the lot number and had Dave Gullo bring me a case the next time we shot together.

    I've shot all of the sample powder and few pounds out of the case, but still no joy.


    I will keep shooting it as I have most of a case still, but for any match, local or nationals, it is Swiss for me.
    I've competed against no small number of riflemen at our local matches that say they shoot Olde Eynsford. I hope they keep at it. I don't tell them about Swiss. I am sure they will try Swiss sooner or later.



    Michael Rix
    Last edited by Chill Wills; 04-29-2017 at 02:06 PM. Reason: sp
    Chill Wills

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Michael I have not given up on the Swiss, I'm still working with it. But at this point the OE is outshooting the Swiss for me but I have shot up a several hundred pounds of it to this point since it came on the market. Swiss has shown good groups @ 200 but it failed to hold up at the Quigley and the Montana 1000 were I had to go back with my 2F OE to finish the match. Even then some of the top shooters where under me at the finish. Like I said I'm still working on the Swiss loads. I just don't have a long range I can use to work with the loads unless I'm shooting a match.
    Raining again so down in the mole den loading again.

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Kurt, the aiming black on the LR targets is 4 minutes. sr target 4.5 moa, silhouette ram is almost 6 minutes head to tail... If a gun can consistently hold 3 moa or less , it'll be competitive, tighter is better, but sometimes chasing your tail around the magical moa load is taking time away from proving up on shooting technique, that could in it's self turn a 3 moa load into 2 or better. And always keep in mind the words of Rick Moritz, a 5 and a 6 will beat an x and a miss every time.
    Powder brand makes little difference, the bullet/lube/wad combo is just as important, if a person can find a good combination, you can be competitive.
    The Eynsford thing, I know several of the shooters that got the free samples didn't shoot it, and you can't blame them. Then you take a look at what folks like Chip Mate are doing with the stuff... I've got the better end of a case of Swiss 1 1/2, it shoots no better or no worse than Eysnford, or Express. All 3 of which shoot cleaner than Cartridge, but then again Cartridge could be very accurate, if you stayed on the top of the fouling control.
    I have to chuckle a bit about all the claims to the number of shooters winning with Swiss, but at the same time that also translates into a larger number of folks loosing the match shooting Swiss.
    Find your best loads and go shoot.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Yes the black is 4.4moa but if you break center that cuts it down to 2.2 moa you have to stay on to get that 8

  18. #38
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    Hey Kurt,
    Really, I'm pretty happy with people using what ever makes them feel good.
    If someone is getting results they are happy with, I say they are good to go.
    After all, match shooting is competition.

    OK, next persons turn........
    Chill Wills

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Indeed Chills, and the only way these things can be resolved is at a match

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Kurt, that's the point, if you don't break center each and every time, a moa load won't keep you from a miss...
    Work up your best load, and then head out to a match, with that load and that load only, no "practice ammo", no "well I think this might be alright" loads, match loads and match quality loads only. If by the end of the match, that load isn't shooting like you thought it should, and one has to be very honest with one's self that it wasn't truly shooter/spotter error, or a gun problem, then it's time to go rework the load.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check