Olde Eynsford verses Swiss

[Lead pot]

Last year I got a case of 1.5 Swiss to give it a try. I worked up several ladder loads to find the best load for two PP bullets I use the most in the .45-90. One is a 515 gr Prolate and the other a 535 gr Elliptical from BA. Both bullets are good performers at all ranges.
Last year at the Mt 1000 I had two boxes of ammo left over from Baker and the Q and when getting sight settings at the Mt. 1000 I found only 21 rounds in the box of OE loads and a full box of 1.5 Swiss. The swiss loads shot well at the Q but did not shoot as well as the 2F OE so I used the 2F OE at the Q and ended up in 12th or 15th place ov er all I don't remember which for sure. That was a 83 gr load of 2F OE with a CCI 200 primer and the 535 gr Elliptical PP bullet.
At the Mt. 1000 during sight in the best I could do was 50% on all four targets. Well I pulled out the box of 83 Gr loads of 2F OE and it was lite, it only had 21 rounds in it not enough to shoot the whole match.
On match morning I fouled the barrel on the CPA .45-90 and took one shot using one of the 21 rounds to get a sight setting for it and put the box back in the gypsy wagon.
During the match the Mt winds where doing their best as usual and the first three targets 2 I made 5 hits using the swiss and one only 4 hits. I told Carol to get the box of 83 gr OE for the last target. she came back and said I can only find this box with 20 rounds in it, I said I only need 11 Those 11 rounds all hit most in the white.
This winter I ordered another case of Swiss and when the weather started to get fit for working up test loads I started with 3 rounds each with the two bullets I shoot from zero compression to .400 and came up several times with a 84 gr load with .190" compression so I loaded up a box of 100 and took it to Wisconsin where I had a chance to shoot 600 yards during very calm conditions. They shot a 3" vertical mostly but some that put a hole where my sight didn't see the spot when the shot was fired.
I pulled out three 83 gr OE loads and shot the last 3 and that group with the 3 shots was under 3" closer to 2" @600 yds.
I must admit that this baffles me that I cant get the swiss to shoot better then what I have.
This morning I went out between rains and a mild 10 O-Clock 6 mph wind and shot 10 rounds each alternating shots on two targets to keep the conditions as close as I can and the OE load put 7 shots into a nice 2" oval group with three wild. two I called because of to much finger on the trigger before I was ready and one dropped 2" low I cant explain. The best swiss load was 4" with two wild once.
Fouling control was two damp two dry second dry patch was clean in both loads.
If you Swiss shooters have a secret way of loading I would like to hear it. .........Kurt

[country gent]

the 1 1/2F olde ensforde performs better in my 45-70 and 45-90 than Swiss does also. I find that the olde ensforde does like some compression More than Swiss and less than goex.

[John Boy]

Kurt, I have found that Swiss shoots better with no or little compression. What is your compression with Swiss. I cleaning out my Swiss inventory to restock with Olde E

[Gunlaker]

In my .45-90, with Dan T's PP chamber, Swiss 1.5 works just a little better than OE 1.5. There isn't much difference though. I haven't tried the OE FFg.

I'm surprised that your powder charge is as light as it is Kurt. Are you seating those bullets deep? Mine uses 93gr of Swiss 1.5 with maybe 0.1" compression. For OE 1.5 I'm using 89gr. In both cases the bullets are 0.110" in the case.

Chris.

[Old-Win]

I won 2 lbs of 3F Old E at the Q last year and I thought I would use it to blow out new cases for a 40-65 that I just picked up. I started loading them today and was surprised at how the granulation size varied. From dust to 3F. Are the 1-1/2F and 2F Old E powders that inconsistent?
84 gr of 1-1/2F Swiss is what I get in my 45-90 Borchardt seated .475" deep over a .030 fiber wad and .050 compression. Bob

[JBinMN]

Ya wanna read something funny? >>>> After reading the topic title... I thought that maybe this was about comparing 2 different types of cheese.


Anyway, interesting stuff to read.

[Lead pot]

Ya wanna read something funny? >>>> After reading the topic title... I thought that maybe this was about comparing 2 different types of cheese.


Anyway, interesting stuff to read.

JB it must be that you live to close to Wisconsin or Iowa

[Gunlaker]

Bob, the OE 1.5 I've used has a lot more variation in granule size than Swiss. It sounds a lot like what you are seeing. It does give consistent velocities though. It's also not like the old Goex Express FFg where the bottom of the can would often just be dust

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Old-Win.
3F OE is pretty fine powder. I use it in the flintlock and pan and it does a fine job. I have also used it in the .44's....the .44-75 Ballard and the .44-100 Rem. works well in them. I have never checked what the fines are in 3 or 2F so I cant say.

[JBinMN]

JB it must be that you live to close to Wisconsin or Iowa

LOL
Yup

Thanks for getting the joke.

[Lead pot]

Chris.
My chamber is very tight. The fired case will only except a bullet lo larger then .453" so that takes away a lot of powder room. Also the wad stack takes up a bunch also and the bullet is seated in the case 1/8" maybe 3/16" I have never measured it. The compression die is locked in for this rifle and I don't change it.


John.

This swiss load is compressed .190" like I mentioned above and this where I get the best load using the 1 grain interval increase from zero to .400" compression ladder loads.

[Gunlaker]

Kurt my chamber will only hold a bore diameter bullet so it's pretty tight too (0.474" neck od). With Swiss I'm just using a 0.030" veg + a .060" LDPE wad.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

cg

I use the 1.5 OE in my 50 shoots pretty well in it. Never used it in the .45-70 I very seldom shoot a .45-70's Sharps and trap doors.
I tried it several times in two .45-90's and it just don't shoot as well as the 2F. What I have left I will burn up here at home and when it's gone I don't think I will replace it.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I've been using 1 1/2 Swiss for my serious target work for a long while now, more than 16 years for sure. I've never tried OE and probably never will. Swiss has done so well for me that I've never looked elsewhere.

I have used Swiss 1 1/2 successfully in 4 different rifles in competition, well the 4th (my .40-65) one is just getting up and running but I know it will do well for me. I have used zero to over .300" compression in these rifles and while I'll usually find a sweet spot at 0-.090" compression I have also seen a second sweet spot at .250-.375" compression in at least one of my .45-70s.

With paper patched bullets I usually stop at the first sweet spot I find with the least amount of compression because I seat my PPB very swallow, only .060-.100" deep and even zero compression is a lot of powder.

In my .45-70 Hepburn with PPB I have 83.0 grains with .090" compression using a .060 LDPE wad.

In my .45-90 Shiloh with PPB I used 100 grains with very minimum compression and a .060 HDPE wad.

I my .45-70 C. Sharps with GG I use ant where from 75.0 to 82.0 grains and a .060 LDPE.

I my C. Sharps .40-65 with PPB, the rifle I was shooting last Saturday, I am using 72.0 grains with .060 compression and a .060" LDPE wad.

The one thing my best loads (these above) in each of these 3 rifles using PPB have in common is the use of pistol primers. I don't particularly like using pistol primers but I like the results on target so I've learned to ignore the things that bug me about pistol primers in rifle cartridges.

I have no doubt that if I looked for a second sweet spot with more compression in these rifles I'd find it, but in those that I use PPB I don't see a need for more powder. Only in the C. Sharps .45-70 in which I only shoot grease grooved bullets do I push the compression to increase the powder/velocity. If that rifle would shoot PPB I could get the 82.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss in there with very little compression, but, sadly, it won't. At least not yet, I never give up trying to get a rifle to shoot PPB and I have a new bullet in mind that just might be the ticket, but the mold isn't cut yet. My mold maker is slower than molasses in January!

I don't think there is really any secret to loading Swiss 1 1/2, I have always found it very easy to get match winning accuracy with it. That being said I do have one rifle that does not like Swiss powder, no way, no how! That's my .44-100, it much prefers 2f Goex, but there are other powders I've never tried in that rifle.

I'd say, try what I've outlined here with your Swiss 1 1/2 and see if that works. If it doesn't it just be that your rifle is not going do it's best with that powder and you'll just have to feed it something else. YMMV

Jim

[Lead pot]

Jim I know you and Brent do well using Swiss and several other shooters I been around also do well using it. This is why I picked up two cases to see what I can to improve better then what I'm doing now. And you are correct about Swiss having two sweet spots with compression and I also have found it to be less then .180" and just under .400" in my .45-90 using a 513 and 535 gr bullets. The 513 gr takes slightly less compression then the 535.
I'm not giving up on Swiss quite yet. Going to Rapids last weekend helped me shooting 600 yards that that load still needs work. Here at home with just 200 yards to work with and the MOA groups I developed with Swiss did not show it at 600 like the proven load of 2F OE that I have been using in the new .45-90 CPA for a year now.
Next weekend I will be going to Alma and I will again have 500 MTRS. to shoot a ladder load again with Swiss.
But I will say this with certainty I feel more drag wiping using swiss then the OE. Just using a damp patch followed with a dry and after about 3 shots fired looking down the bore I see fouling starting to build up and instead of just a damp patch I had to make it wetter if I just wanted to use one damp and one dry. With Swiss I went to one wet and two dry to keep the build up down. This is not what I have to do using OE.
I will get it worked out.

Kurt

[John Boy]

[U][FONT=&amp]I have never checked what the fines are in 3 or 2F so I cant say.

Swiss 1.5 (250.205)
12 mesh – 0.27% retained
14 mesh – 5.24% retained
20 mesh - 92.59% retained
30 mesh - 0.10% retained
Through - 0.72%

Olde E' 1.5Fg:
20 mesh - 98.163% Hold
30 mesh - 0.612% Hold
40 mesh - 0.000%
50 mesh - 1.224% Hold
60 mesh - Trace
80 mesh - Trace Passed

Swiss FFg (250.504)
20 mesh - 76.16% retained
30 mesh - 23.50% retained
Through - 0.34%

Olde E FFg:
20 mesh - 62.81% Hold
30 mesh - 32.32% Hold
40 mesh - 04.27% Hold
50 mesh - 00.60% Hold
60 mesh - Trace

Swiss FFFg (270.409
20 mesh - Trace
30 mesh - 87.2% Hold
40 mesh - 12.8% Hold
50 mesh - Trace

Olde E FFFg:
10 mesh - Zero
20 mesh - 8.07% Hold
30 mesh - 44.72% Hold
40 mesh - 32.29% Hold
50 mesh - 13.66% Hold
60 mesh - 1.24% Hold
80 mesh - Trace passed

[Don McDowell]

Kurt, what size of patches are you using for wiping? In the 44's and 45's 2 1/2 inch seem to work much better than the smaller ones.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I know what you're saying about the fouling with 1 1/2 Swiss and I agree, at least with my .45s (70 & 90). With my Shiloh.45-90 I just sucked it up and went with two wet patches followed by one dry. That was a little slow but not too bad time wise. Because of the jazz my then spotter gave me over "....all the time spent wiping when I should be shooting!", I made up at set of bore pigs or bore gophers or whatever you want to call them. Those things worked great, one pass through the bore and it was squeaky clean and faster than Glenn's one wet & one dry so he quit bugging me about my wiping time. I managed to win back to back Mother's Day long-range matches at Lodi using that system. Fouling buildup was never a problem.

When I made the switch to my Hepburn in .45-70 and I quickly found out that that rifle doesn't want to be squeaky clean, it likes to be a "little" dirty. So I went to one wet & one dry. That comes with a whole different set of problems, maintaining the just right level of "a little bit dirty" is a much harder task. Too clean and the group opens up, too dirty and shot drop lower and lower as the fouling builds and the velocity drops. The simple answer to that problem is on every 5th or 6th shot run two wet and one dry. That's the safe answer because it always works fairly well, the heavy buildup never gets started. Because how soon the buildup becomes too much is very dependent on conditions I have two other options for knowing when or ever if I need that 2nd wet patch.

First, I can wait for a unexplained low shot, the first of those is only a minute low, when I see that just run two wet & one dry through and I'm good again.

Second, I can pay close attention to the feel of that first wet patch going through the bore, especially the last 6 inches. If I detect any tightness run that second wet patch through before the dry and I am again good to go.

I basically use all three of these methods depending on conditions and time remaining in my relay. It probably sounds like a lot of work but if I keep my brain in gear and pay attention that rifle/load/bullet is capable of winning any match I enter and that makes me happy to do whatever she tells me to do. The hard part is listening to what she's telling me when under match conditions!

Now with my .40-65 I have not encountered the problem of fouling buildup being enough to cause any issues. That may be a result of a more efficient burn in that tapered case as opposed to the straight .45 cases? At Rapids last Saturday I shot 22 round at 300 and 22 at 600 all while wiping with one wet and one dry. There may have been one time at 600 that I felt the wet patch a bit tight and I ran a second wet patch followed by the one dry. It's so ingrained in me to "feel" the patch as it goes through the bore that if I even think a second wet patch is needed it a done deal.

I was very pleased with the way my .40-65 shot at both 300 & 600, but especially at 600. Being that it is an 18 twist barrel and the bullet is only 382 grains and 1.250" long, the outer edge of length for an 18 twist to stabilize, I was happy they made it to 600 yards. I was able to keep most of the last ten shots inside the 10-ring with a couple of 9s but also a few Xs. The constantly flipping mirage was a bit tricky and challenging to keep up with while spotting for myself, but it was a bucket load of fun. I need to do a bunch more shooting with this rifle. I'm bringing it to Lodi next month but I'm torn between shooting the .40-65 or my .45-70 Hepburn. It will likely be the Hepburn because I know that one so well and because I want to bring James up to speed on the Hepburn so he can shoot a better score hopefully.

So to sum this rather long post up, I shoot 1 1/2 Swiss because I win matches shooting it and I do what I have to to control the fouling for the same reason. That will not be true for everyone and every rifle, but it damn sure works for me. Keep in mind that my experience with other powders is rather limited and as always YMMV.

Jim

[Lead pot]

I'm still waiting for my .40-65 reamer. I ordered it last Feb and I still don't have it. Everything is ready for the chamber. I was hoping that I would have it before I take off on my Shooting circuit, but it don't look like it will happen this year.

I didn't worry about center target at Rapids I just wanted to get on paper and shoot a group. All shots I took where using swiss loads except the last 2 that went through the spotter with it stuck in the third hole under the spotter. That was my 83 gr OE load.

Well my Daughter just came and she wants to go shoot to get ready for the Q so I better through stuff in the Jeep and get going.
She was here four days ago to shoot but the range was loaded so we shot in the front yard She handles that .45-70 pretty well.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I didn't worry about center either, not right away at 600 anyway. My first shots on paper grouped below the black at 6:00. Once I had an idea of group size I moved to the center and at first tried making corrections for the ever changing mirage by turning on the knobs, but that was too slow. I'd watch the mirage in the spotting scope, let it get running good which ever way, then turn in a correction on my scope, get in the rifle and get centered and break the shot. A couple times the mirage would reverse from the time I left the spotting scope, made the correction, and broke the shot. That would result in an 8 or a 7, not good. So I decided to just hold off for my correction, which is super easy with a scope. I'd just move from the spotting scope to the rifle with my no wind zero dialed in then hold either 3:00 or 9:00 and break the shot. That worked very well being much faster I was able to beat the switches resulting in good center hits. That is just the sort of practice I need and can't get on my home range. I did this in part to help prepare me for the Creedmoor Cup at Lodi in June, no coaching allowed in that match so I'll be totally on my own. I've shot under those rules before but it's been a while so a little practice seemed like a good idea and was fun. Plus it gives me an idea as to what this rifle can do under match conditions, which was one of several things I wanted to test. I wish I could go and do that once a month! My match scores would improve and it wouldn't hurt my spotting for others any either. That was my thinking when I moved to center with my last several shots. I also needed a good 600 yard sight setting and centering my shots gave me that. I now have good solid sight settings for 200, 300, and 600 yards, 400 & 500 should be easy to figure pretty darn close using the info I learned last weekend.

And I only hit the spotter once in the center of the target so you got beat there, but I did come close many times!

Jim