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Thread: 8 x 57mm - 252 grain Ideal 320378 - GC'd & PC'd - 40 grains H4831SC - "Uhh ?"

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    8 x 57mm - 252 grain Ideal 320378 - GC'd & PC'd - 40 grains H4831SC - "Uhh ?"

    This is going to be the very first round ever fired through this M48 since they packed it away in cosmoline in the 50's in Yugoslavia...it's going to be a 'cast' round shooter and a 'cruise missile' launcher on top of that.

    This is an old Ideal single cavity mould from the 30's and it casts about 244 grains in COWW + 1% Sn but by the time I CG and PC it, it weighs 252 grains. There are no load tables to work from....I've been asking about this in another thread looking for a load but nobody else has anything to suggest other than fast powder loads. Didn't want that.
    I would like to get this round up to about 21 or 2,200 FPS.

    With grateful appreciation to Larry Gibson for his input...He came up with a suggested starting point and a slow rifle powder to use for the speed I'd like to have...he said 40 grains of H4831SC or Reloader 19 or 22. The H4831SC is not sensitive to temperature swings so I chose that to start, had to go find it in town...found it first try!
    This case will hold 52 grains to the base of the seated cast...this load of 40 grains is only 79% case fill so I added .5 grains of fluffed up dacron to the top of the load.

    My bore is .3235" and these cast are sized .3252".

    This COAL is 3.190" of a maximum length of 3.250"...I'm crimping on the crimp groove and just squeaking in under max. length.


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    See how this round compares to some factory Remington 170 grain RN SP's...it's a monster! The PC is a clear/copper, it's a thin coat and the copper color doesn't show up very well.


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    This length round fits the magazine all the way to the bottom and cycles out and into battery from either side of the stack. Thats a 170 grain RN SP under the cast round.

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    Heres where you fellas can start calling me 'Chicken Charlie'...I had no intentions of firing this experiment on the first starting load...you know..."Just in case!" I backed off 20 feet from this thing...then pulled the string!
    It turned out 'uneventful', it was really a pretty mild sounding report.
    Now I can do the benchwork from here...no more tie downs. I'll show you why in the next post with some more pictures...


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    These attachments below show the set-up in front of the chrono and bullet trap...Notice the chrono number? '1826 FPS'...that's awesome, thats 142,131 RPM ( @ 9.25 twist ) and that certainly will stabilize this round. "Fingers crossed!" Of course these cast are going to have to be cast as perfectly as I can manage for stability but this mold is dropping with a max. spread of 2 grains.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_2981.jpg   IMG_2983.jpg  
    Last edited by OS OK; 04-26-2017 at 09:49 AM.
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    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Here's the most exciting thing about this experiment...look at this nicely rounded primer...this 40 grain load to start is actually mild as it sounded...look how rounded this CCI LR primer has soft rounded edges.
    I believe I'll get to work up the speed a bit from here and then go into ladder testing to fine tune this recipe to get on a barrel node.


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    More to follow as this experiment develops from here...thanks again Larry Gibson for your input, that made all the difference!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    thats great!!!!

    on your chrono, is it 1626fps or 1826fps?

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    1826...unbelievable huh!
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    Always a pleasure to help where I can.

    Larry Gibson

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    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Load range - Primer indications - FPS - RPM's - First look...

    Today I loaded 5 rounds each of 40, 41, 42 & 43 grains of H4831SC and topped them all off with .5 grains of Dacron since this is approximately 80% case fill. I want to determine where to start with tuning to a barrel node, since there are no load tables for this heavy round I thought I'd first find out about pressure...how much powder is too much? As amateurs without expensive test equipment, we are limited to watching our primers as a coarse indication.
    The second thing I consider is RPM...If I shoot too fast for this 1:9.25 I'll create problems, either skidding or excessive RPM which will limit these imperfect cast...they would open the group wider and wider at increasing distances.

    So first picture here shows primer condition of a 40 grain load...rounded edges.
    1,806 FPS Avg. & 22 FPS variation...140,575 RPM.

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    This is the 41 grain load...rounded edges.
    1,860 FPS Avg. & 23 FPS variation...144,778 RPM.

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    This is the 42 grain load...rounded edges.
    2,002 FPS Avg. & 65 FPS variation...155,831 RPM.

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    This is the 43 gain load...rounded edges still.
    2,035 FPS & 37 FPS variation...158,400 RPM.

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    It looks like I will far exceed a working RPM before I get into pressure signs. I wanted to shoot at 21 or 2,200 FPS but I think that speed is out of the question now.
    Todays test were done with a new blend of Pb...(5#) Isotope cores with (4# No. 2 Lyman)...Weight of these casts varied from 248.9 - 249.6 grains @ 14.4 BHN measured one week after casting. (2.8% Sn, 3.9% Sb, 93.3% Pb.)

    Where would you start? Why?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    It looks an old steel jacket soft point rn Rem UMC round in my collection. The neck was cracked so I pulled the bullet & weighed it-250 grns.
    That Yugo should be a great shooter.
    Best, Thomas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    1826...unbelievable huh!
    that is amazing. if it was a flat point, i'd take it hunting.

  9. #9
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    Thumper load I say! Nice gun. I wish we could find those old molds reasonably but my Lee 8mm maxi drops at 242 gr and has a nice flat meplat. Somebody here graciously did a quick load search and with H414@ 46 gr and a 240-250 gr slug should do about 2000fps. I got to 42 gr and was totally convinced I had enough! I will have to get some 4831 and try your load. Larry gives good info for sure!
    Look twice, shoot once.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I don't know Larry outside of a few short conversations with him, but...from what I've observed, Larry works off of 'empirical data'...actual measurements, not something Uncle Bill said you should try? WAG.
    On this load he said I might have a high maximum load of 46 grains, and a not to exceed of 48, but...with the 1:9.25 twist it wouldn't do any good with the casts. It's obvious, looking at the primer edges that there is still room to go at the top.

    *I tried to look up a Lee 8mm maxi, couldn't find it in Lee's lineup...what is it? Got a picture of the mould?
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  11. #11
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    Your Mauser barrel should have typical .005 - .006" deep grooves which were Mauser spec. Those are obviously deeper than the typical .003 - .004 grooves of most other rifles barrels, especially commercial rifle barrels. As recent tests recovering cast bullets of 1800 - 2900 fps we know the bullets are swaged down .003 - .005 smaller than groove diameter. The deeper rifling in Mauser barrels thus hangs onto the bullet much better. I believe it's why, with a properly designed cast bullet having sufficient bearing length, we can bush the RPM threshold up higher in a 8x57 Mauser with a 9.5" - 10" twist than we can with say a M1903 '06 with a 10" twist.

    Thus in Mauser barrels with true Mauser specs the rifling maintains a sufficient hold on the bullet even after it is swaged down. However, given the very long nose of the bullet discussed here just how much the RPM Threshold can be pushed remains for OS OK to find out. Should prove interesting.

    Larry Gibson

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I am amazed every time I peer down the barrel...it looks like someone put a coiled spring liner in it. Lands are tall and aggressive looking. It's a lot like standing at the top of the stairs in a very tall light house and looking at the bottom through the countless circles of stairs.

    No one has made a recommendation as where to start ladder testing so I think I'll start at the 42 grain/2,002 FPS level and start a series of loads .3 grains apart, up and down from 42 grains in the center...

    This barrel is so 'bound' to the furniture front to rear I think it will have more nodes than a bare bull barrel. I think they will have smaller FPS variations in between because of the stiffness of the entire rig. "I dunnoh!"
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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    Midsouth has those molds in their speciality dept. They have a 8mm Maxi and a 8mm Karibiner. The Kaibinar or whatever they call it is a wee bit fatter in nose but big slugs they are. This dept is where the fabled 6.5 cruise is.
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    Boolit Buddy iron brigade's Avatar
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    I have the 8mm carabiner Lee mold from midsouth. It casts at .329 and the nose of the boolit is so large it won't chamber in any of my mausers. Guess a guy could get a nose bushing from NOE and size it down.

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    ..............I had that mould for a while. At the time the only 8x57 I had was a M88 and it didn't shoot it too well. I didn't expect it too as it dropped from the mould a wee tad too small on the drive bands.



    I then designed the middle slug (Above Left) and we did a group buy from Lee back in the dim past (Above Right) Unsized and Sized comparison and GC depth at different OAL's.



    Over time I acquired several rifles chambered 8x57, one of which was this fairly nice M38/46, which had a VERY nice bore. For some reason I decided I needed to make that custom 240 gr Lee go 2300 FPS. Just because I suppose. I'd done some experimental loading with that Lee before and thought that it might be do-able using surplus WC852 ball, which was of a slow lot available at that time. I'm not at home at the moment so can't quote the loads from my data sheets but I started around 50 grs topped with Winchester GREX shotshell buffer to the mouth and compressed with the boolit. I loaded 5 rounds of each up to where the filler was no longer needed.

    As it turned out as I reached the last five rounds, two of them mercifully exceeded the 2300 fps target velocity by a couple FPS, and I was mightily thankful in being able to end the test. Accuracy was quite good up to and including 2200 fps but the groups did begin to open some. I'd run a patch through the bore after each 5 and did not experience any leading. I discovered that the barreled action HAD backed up in the stock to create a faint crack behind the tang in the stock. After that a mild repair was made, and the action bedded in Acraglass. The opening groups MIGHT have been caused by that movement but I had no real desire or need to repeat the top end loads as a double check.



    Another Turk acquisition was this very nice M88/35 which had had all the German mods done to it before the Turks got ahold of it. Being of an older design I had no real desire to push it, but did try it out with that Lee mould. This time I used Surplus T5020 ball from Thunderbird Cartridge. I think it is somewhat similar to WC860 or WC872 ball, and slower then the WC852. I again used GREX as a filler. At first there was a bit of unburned powder that was a bit of a pain, but it eventually cleared up enough to be a non issue.

    I only went to 1800 fps, and it displayed all the accuracy anyone could have asked for. The M88/35 has a superb bore but the grooves slugged .326", which is what I lube-sized the boolits at. Never had a problem as I think the 4 wide lands upset the slugs enough to seal the bore. This rifle also weighs a friggin' ton so the recoil was never an issue. I used to think of some poor old long ago Turkish troop who had to hump this beast up hill and down dale all day long

    ................Buckshot
    Last edited by Buckshot; 05-03-2017 at 04:28 AM.
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    Someone needs to talk to Swede about this 8MM bullet clone... heck, we did it with the 311331. Will someone send Swede some samples?

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    Boolit Buddy iron brigade's Avatar
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    Hey buckshot,
    I just bought one of those m88/35 mausers. Bought it on gun broker for $195.00. It is in really nice shape. Interesting boolit design btw

    I agree with Nybushbro, would like that mold...

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    I can't get over how the 252g. Lyman looks like it was made for this 8 x 57mm. At 42 grains of H4831SC it had 4 of the 5 rounds touching with one high by 3/8" or so...it had plenty- O-wollup. I'll be satisfied with this speed if I can get on a node and tighten them up. This first test was more on the lines of seeing where the pressure might start so I could back off from there. If I go much faster I'm afraid that the RPM's will be so high that any imperfections in the casts will defeat the quest for accuracy.
    a m e r i c a n p r a v d a

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYBushBro View Post
    Someone needs to talk to Swede about this 8MM bullet clone... heck, we did it with the 311331. Will someone send Swede some samples?
    Found THIS buried in the cobwebs of old threads:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?286746-323378-8mm-Heavy



    Last edited by NYBushBro; 05-08-2017 at 08:18 PM. Reason: Posted wrong link

  20. #20
    Boolit Man pill bug's Avatar
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    I like the ideal 320378, but have only really used it for mild loads out of m1888 commission rifles. I'm a little surprised that although available from the teens thru the 1970's as a standard in the ideal/lyman catalogs, its a really hard mold to find. Only see this design show up about once a year on E-bay and only in single cavity. I very much regret not bidding on the only double cavity I ever saw several years ago.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check