Papers sticking to bulletsThe

[54bore]

As some know i have been playing with the Lyman Plains bullets Sized and Paper Patched in .50 and .54 Cal with really good results, yesterday morning i took my old stock 1:48 twist .54 Renegade out to shoot, the bore on this rifle is tight, i tried sizing to .539 and it loaded way to hard, i had to drop down a Size to .538 to get a decent fit, I shot a total of 13 shots, My group was horrifyingly horrible, i was lucky to hit a 2 foot sheet of plywood! I shot this gun day before yesterday with PURE SOFT LEAD and a lighter charge with decent so so results, about a 3" group but only 50 yards away. Yesterday was the same Lyman Plains bullet except harder, a lot harder, about 9.5BHN, after shooting all over the place i noticed something odd, Onion skin papers at my target, some of them had made the entire trip to and THROUGH my paper target at 50 yards away, (i am shooting through a piece of old plywood with a 10 circle cut out of it so the fragments of wood don't destroy my targets, i set my targets so i am shooting through that 10" hole and going through the paper target only) I actually found a couple onion skin papers behind my target. I did not notice this day before yesterday with my soft lead bullets, and my group was decent.

Moral of the story, When you paper patch an oversized bullet and SMASH it through a reducing die, be prepared for this to happen, SMILE Lee S&W 500 Shooters, this is happening to you as well, I GAURANTEE IT!! There are 2 ways that i see to fix this, 1 is to do like Roger says and cut a slit down the sides of the paper before loading, This might work depending on lead hardness and how much the paper is 'bit in to the bullet' (i have always sized my bullets first, cleaned them off, wrapped them and sent them back through the die, Doing it this way would help combat this problem a tiny bit, but stil no gaurantees the papers wont stick) In my personal opinion the only definate fix for this if you plan to stick with your 20 dollar Lee mold is to buy a couple different sizing dies (38 bucks a piece) and go in steps reducing the bullet diameter down to .493-.494, THEN wrap your paper and send them through a .498-.499 But at that point wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a quality mold that drops a bullet the correct size to begin with? Something to think about!

[54bore]

Pictures are better than words, look at how the paper is biting in to the Lee S&W 500 and deforming/marring, now think about this, i was SIZING my Lee S&W bullets down 4 Thou BEFORE i ever paper patched and Resized, SO you guys that are patching this Lee bullet directly from the mold and pushing it through your sizing die YOUR papers are 'biting in' 4 Thou more than mine!!

Attachment 193878 Attachment 193879

This is my new .494 bullet below, Look at my paper after being pushed through my .499 die, do you see the lube grooves pressing through? NOPE! Now look at my 5 Lee S&W 500 bullets above, notice how you can see the lube grooves imprinted/smashed into the paper? Thats to D@mn tight, WAY TO TIGHT! Again i always sized my bullets first BEFORE patching and resizing, so you guys that don't, your papers are bit in even worse than mine!
Attachment 193880

[54bore]

I started this thread on the Lyman Plains bullets because they are actually worse than the Lee S&W 500 as they drop from the mold more like a Maxi ball with a front driving band, BUT i lube and size all of them to .499 BEFORE i patch so i have been getting away with it, up until yesterday when i found the papers had made it to and through my target.

So no one gets butthurt and thinks i am picking on the Lee S&W 500, I absolutely am NOT!! The Lyman plains bullets are the same thing, and the reason i started this thread

[rfd]

yep, you wanna do as all good ppb's cartridge loaders do - starting off with an under-bore bullet is a must, then build up from there with the patching, and then some trial and error fitting to the bore ...



no more greasers for me, every long gun projectile gets patched one way or t'other!

you wanna see lots of confetti flying right after every shot, as the paper gets totally shredded ...

[54bore]

rfd, i agree, i have put a TON of homework in this and there is obviously a reason that a true Paper Patched bullet is under size to begin with! I started out by having a custom .533 mold built for my 54s, then this .494 for 50 Cal, i just now got in the door from testing this new .494 50 Cal bullet, its gonna shoot! And the paper turns to confetti upon exiting the barrel as it should! Both my .533 for 54 and now this .494 for 50 'shuck' the paper immediately upon exiting the barrel. Here is a Group i just shot a few minutes ago with these new .494 bullets, this was only 60 yards to test, and a stouter charge than i normally run, this was 95 Weight grains of Swiss 2F powder, i am confident i can well better this with 70 Grains of 3F and, or 80 Grains of 2F, Swiss of course But this was a good test and i am happy with my results, looking forward to stretching out, i want to work a little more at 50-60 load development wise and get it as tight as i can, then head to a true 100 yards. Here is what i just did with the above mentioned new from Accurate molds .494 in my Stainless GM LRH 1:28 twist

Attachment 193885

[rfd]

darned good shootin', lewis!

[longbow]

I don't have any experience here but do have a question or three:

- Why would you be casting harder boolits for paper patching? I thought the idea was that the boolit upset to fill the rifling. A harder boolit isn't going to upset as easily.
- Could it be that because you used a harder boolit and it didn't upset like soft lead that the paper was not stretched and weakened? I would have figured patches would shed anyway but... using harder boolits and sizing after patching (with hard alloy too) are both differences to your normal routine.
- Have you shot these same harder alloy boolits from another gun but gotten good results?

Just curious.

Longbow

[johnson1942]

never ever resize after wrapping. do not wet wrap on muzzleloader bullets. make sure you bullets are sized right before you dry wrap. on castboolits for a bpc rifles wet wrap but for a muzzle loader never ever wet wrap. again and i sound like a broken record, single wrap and all the fuss goes away. this is what ive found in a lot of shooting ive done. 45 cal. paperpatched bullets are not near as fussy as 50 cal and larger. double dry wrap works very well for me in 45 cal. however it is another story with 50 cal. could not get one of my custom 50 cal fast twist to shoot double dry wrap at all. switched to single wrap and it become a one hole gun. the bullet was long and weighed 686 grains and paper stuck to it on double wrap, single wrap, never stuck to it. again. never resize after wrapping. never wet wrap. 50 cal and above, use the single wrap system. life then becomes easy at the shooting range.

[bubba.50]

if you'd lube & shoot them bullets the way God intended ya wouldn't have that problem.

[54bore]

I don't have any experience here but do have a question or three:

- Why would you be casting harder boolits for paper patching? I thought the idea was that the boolit upset to fill the rifling. A harder boolit isn't going to upset as easily.
- Could it be that because you used a harder boolit and it didn't upset like soft lead that the paper was not stretched and weakened? I would have figured patches would shed anyway but... using harder boolits and sizing after patching (with hard alloy too) are both differences to your normal routine.
- Have you shot these same harder alloy boolits from another gun but gotten good results?

Just curious.

Longbow

I have experimented with both hard and soft lead, most recently soft pure lead and learned that it is the BEST way to go with these OVERSIZED bullets, (Lee S&W 500, Lyman Plains) I have shot these same harder 9-9.5 BHN bullets way back when i was using the Lee S&W 500 mold, i don't remember ever finding a paper at my target with that bullet no matter the hardness, it's possible that some made the trip and I didn't see them on the Ground, I STRONGLY suspect they did after Yesterday shooting the harder Lyman Plains bullets paper patched i found several had made the journey, and they size IDENTICAL to the Lee S&W 500, they are to big when they drop from the mold, So while soft lead MIGHT work better at shedding the paper, the FACT is that 1 stuck paper that makes it to the target is 1 stuck paper to many!!

Roger, i do not disagree with your single wrap method, i simply prefer to carry my bullets already done and ready to go in the field hunting. As long as a guy uses a correct sized bullet in the beginning the double wrap of onion skin paper works FLAWLESS, and its a much more convenient package to carry in the field. I have not had any problems getting my fast twist barrels to shoot them VERY WELL, .45 and .50 Cal, Matter of fact its been ridiculously easy to get them to shoot AMAZING with the double wrap Onion Skin paper method! With the correct size bullet you are NOT sizing the bullet itself, all i am doing is giving the paper a slight pinch to tighten it up (maybe not needed but i do it, and will continue) example a .494 bullet with 2 wraps of onion skin paper brings the total diameter to .502 then i send them through a .499 sizing die, again all i am doing is slightly snugging the paper up and making a convenient package to carry in the field (my onion skin paper from the paper mill store measures 2 thou single, doubled is 4 thou, so 2 wraps around a bullet ads 8 thou to the overall diameter) The best way to put it is, its like carrying a Sabot in the field, if you a reload its right there already done and ready to go! I have no doubt with practice you could get fast with your single wrap method. I just prefer the already done double wrap method.

[54bore]

I am DONE talking about the Lee S&W 500 and the Lyman plains bullets being PROBLEM children when paper patching. I have put a TON of time and research in this, i have stated COLD HARD FACTS about both of these bullets that no one can deny, NOW if you choose to use either, or both that is totally up to you, I have shot both VERY WELL! But i am not gonna deal with the problems both of these bullets present when shooting them the way we do. I own both .50 and .54 Lyman Plains Molds and will continue on with them, my dad shoots the .54 Plains greased like they were intended to be used VERY WELL. Since i just had a custom .494 mold made from the Lee S&W 500 bullet i have no use for the Lee Mold, Don Diego you spoke for it first, it is yours FREE if you want to pay the shipping?

The ONLY reason i will post again on this thread is if ANYONE wants to argue the FACTS i have presented about the Lee S&W 500 bullet, and or the Lyman Plains. Otherwise this horse has been beaten to death, im done beating on it, time to move on.

[rfd]

i'm with ya, lewis - yer findings are right on the money, sir.

[Harleysboss]

Definitely time to move on and concentrate on TURKEY HUNTING!

[idahoron]

I am going to say that I have a log list of game animals that have been killed with the Lee 500 S&W bullet. I have seen an equally long list of animals killed with that bullet that other guys have killed and I was with them. I have and my son has shot steel targets out to 300 yards with that bullet.
It was not intended to be a Paper Patch bullet. But I can Honestly tell you for a fact. The Lee 500 S&W bullet is an accurate bullet. It is a game killer for sure.
Now about the paper riding to the target. I have seen this once. I found a bullet that still had a bit of paper on it. Does it happen all the time? I don't think so. The reason I say that is because we have shot this bullet well out to 300 yards for MANY years. I have been shooting these bullets for almost 10 years now.
I know that starting with a mould that is sized correctly from the start is the best way. I have done that for years with the .446 RCBS bullet in my 45. But the fact is if a guy wants a better bullet than the factory Hornady, Buffalo bullet, Power belt, Maxi ball, or maxi hunter the Lee bullet for 25 bucks, a sizer for 25 or so and paper for another 25, along with pure lead will get a guy a supply of bullets that will FAR exceed any factory bullet made. I have seen it for almost a decade.

You said you didn't want to talk about them being problems but I got to tell you a lot of guys are using them and not having the problems you are. I know you have a ton of time and research into them this year, but I have more, a LOT more. I have tested groups and recorded lead hardness, and applied it to bullet development. I have seen this bullet work for many years on targets and game.

I don't remember the hardness of the lead I used with the Lyman plains bullet. At that time I might not have had a tester I don't remember. All I know is I tried them naked and paper patched. The naked ones had groups that were lucky to hit paper at 50 yards. Maybe they were too hard. I don't remember what the lead was on them. I also don't remember what the lead was on them when I paper patched them, but I am sure it was soft, I had a tester by that time. But the paper patched ones didn't shoot any better or any worse.
Maybe the paper stuck on the plains bullet like yours did. I don't know that for sure. All I know was the paper didn't help or hurt the already pathetic groups I had with that mould.

I know you have facts that pertain to your guns and the lead you are using. I have some facts that I have attained as well. I will say that facts are like belly buttons everyone has one and they are all different.

[koger]

Ron following your and Rogers advice, with the lee .500, have had no problems in my .50 Hotrod, period, and outstanding accuracy also. I have also, had great luck, with the Lyman slug in .50 and .54in TC Hawken 1-48 twist barrels, just getting to them in the 1-28. I just cast and lube, with a veg/fiber wad underneath the slug. I shoot 105 grs. of 2ffg in the .54, and 90 in the .50. I think a heavy enough charge to upset the slug, makes a huge difference. I think often, variable such as glass bedding a rifle, especially older TC Hawkens and Renegades makes a huge difference, it has on several different ones I have bedded.

[54bore]

Ron, I vividly remember you telling me on more than 1 occasion about finding papers (plural) at your target and being concerned about it. Truth is, wether it be 1 paper or 1000 papers that stuck to the bullet and did not 'Shuck' at the muzzle, it WAS A FAILURE! I have shown above with pictures why it is sticking, Do they all stick? Who knows? In my humble opinion 1 STUCK PAPER on a paper patched bullet IS 1 STUCK PAPER TO MANY! In all actuality The paper on these type of bullets DESERVE a ride to the target, after all we worked DAMN HARD to get it there. No more free rides for mine tho!

Ron, We could argue and argue over this, but simple FACT is I am not gonna back off an inch, and I wouldn't expect you to, this is a NO WIN situation for either of us. In response to your log list of animals taken with the S&W 500 bullet, I could argue that people have killed every living thing with Spears, boulders, booby traps, etc. (and they most definitely have!) is there a better way, YES i believe so! The same as i believe there is a better bullet for paper patching. But why argue over this? FACT is you have made this bullet work for you, Stand by it, stick to it. I won't hold it against ya i promise

[johnson1942]

54 bore, are you wet wrapping these bullets? i have a idea i tried and worked if you are wet wrapping but dont want to lay it out here is you are dry wrapping.

[54bore]

54 bore, are you wet wrapping these bullets? i have a idea i tried and worked if you are wet wrapping but dont want to lay it out here is you are dry wrapping.

Roger, i NEVER wet wrap, i only dry wrap the 2 Wraps of onion skin paper, and my only reasoning for running them through the sizer is simply to slightly snug the paper to the bullet to make a convenient package to carry in the field. With my true under size paper patch bullets i am not sizing the lead at all, i have NEVER had a paper stick, my papers turn to confetti upon exiting the barrel as they should

[54bore]

I actually have a thought of trying something just because, i am thinking of ordering a Lee Sizing die in .493, Lubing these Lee S&W bullets really good across my lube pad and sizing them NAKED, then wiping them good and clean, patching them as i do with the 2 wraps of onion skin, then sending them through my .499 sizing die to slightly snug the paper up. But This would be doing the same thing as the custom .494 mold i just had made, so no benefits to me other than something else to tinker with.
I have found that Lubing oversize bullets and sizing them WAY down is a simple process, the key here is LUBE! Try it without lube and you have a stuck bullet! I also have found that i get NO finning when using lube, but i do get finning of the bullets without lube

[johnson1942]

try this and it may get you what you want. size the bullets to the size so when they are wrapped they dont have to be snugged or sized again. use a lead that is fairly soft. now to the thing i did and it worked very very well. cut your paper out and put them in a small bowel of water with elmers paper glue in it, mixed in very well. soak the papers and wet wrap the bullets and dry them to as dry as they can get. then run them through the die that snugs them and lets you load them with ease. then you will have a paper sabot that is tight and firm but different. if you took it off the bullet it would keep its shape. now slit down one side along the seam line to the lead. dont worry it will keep its shape and not flop around. load it on top of a good tight wad and with enough real black to bump it up and the paper will will come off the bullet with ease. you turn this double wrap into a single wrap you can carry around in you possible bag, load well and comes off the bullet well. dont lube this type of pp bullets and of course wipe between rounds. the glue wont make it stick to the bullet. elmers paper glue is easy to mix with water. i cant see how this system will fail you and it gives you a beautifully wrapped bullet that wont fail. remember not too hard a lead. 30 or 40 to 1 or what is the matter with pure lead? which i prefer. if the lead is soft and the powder is enough the bullet should bump up with in 11 inches of the breech. if you are using all wood fiber paper number nine be very careful when you wet wrap with is as is is fragile when wet, if you are using 25 percent cotton fiber 9 paper you dont have to be so extra careful. try it, it worked very very well for me.