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Thread: Papers sticking to bulletsThe

  1. #21
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    I have had 1 and one only that I have found with paper. Could a random flyer be paper maybe. But that bullet hit the intended target. How many stick I don't know. In almost 10 years I have found one. In all honesty you have a limited knowledge of the bullet and limited testing. A couple weeks ago you were running lead That was way too hard and sticking them in your sizer. I think some of your testing has been under incorrect data.

    Bringing up spears, boulders, and boobie traps is not on the topic. The topic is telling 500 s&w bullet. You are trivalizing my accomplishments with that bullet and game. You are trivalizing my work in regards to groups, distance I shoot, and lead hardness testing on game. We are not talking about other methods of legally or illegally killing game. We are only talking about the 500 s&w bullet.
    Is there better bullets for game? I don't know but what I do know is I got my first muzzleloader when I was about 10. I have about 42 years of experience in both shooting and killing game.
    Does one paper mean a failure? I can't answer that. HaveI lost a game animal with that bullet? NO! Do I think that a stuck paper could cause a miss on an animal? Maybe.
    I am being honest in this evaluation.
    Will I do more testing to try to determine if they are sticking? I will be looking for signs.

    Now, do I think your bullet is a better bullet? I don't know yet. One sub 2" group at 50 yards is not saying much. But that bullet is based off the 500 s&w so I am going to say it has hope. But there are changes to the original and it is only a guess until further testing is done.
    I am not arguing that there is not sure better bullet. All I am saying is with your limited testing you are awful quick to say this bullet is a failure and my work with it and game I have shot and others have shot mean nothing.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by idahoron View Post
    I have had 1 and one only that I have found with paper. Could a random flyer be paper maybe. But that bullet hit the intended target. How many stick I don't know. In almost 10 years I have found one. In all honesty you have a limited knowledge of the bullet and limited testing. A couple weeks ago you were running lead That was way too hard and sticking them in your sizer. I think some of your testing has been under incorrect data.

    Bringing up spears, boulders, and boobie traps is not on the topic. The topic is telling 500 s&w bullet. You are trivalizing my accomplishments with that bullet and game. You are trivalizing my work in regards to groups, distance I shoot, and lead hardness testing on game. We are not talking about other methods of legally or illegally killing game. We are only talking about the 500 s&w bullet.
    Is there better bullets for game? I don't know but what I do know is I got my first muzzleloader when I was about 10. I have about 42 years of experience in both shooting and killing game.
    Does one paper mean a failure? I can't answer that. HaveI lost a game animal with that bullet? NO! Do I think that a stuck paper could cause a miss on an animal? Maybe.
    I am being honest in this evaluation.
    Will I do more testing to try to determine if they are sticking? I will be looking for signs.

    Now, do I think your bullet is a better bullet? I don't know yet. One sub 2" group at 50 yards is not saying much. But that bullet is based off the 500 s&w so I am going to say it has hope. But there are changes to the original and it is only a guess until further testing is done.
    I am not arguing that there is not sure better bullet. All I am saying is with your limited testing you are awful quick to say this bullet is a failure and my work with it and game I have shot and others have shot mean nothing.

    I'm done with it Ron, ive spoke my mind on it. Folks can read this stuff and make up their own mind which makes more sense? I wish you nothing but the best of success with your Lee S&W 500 bullet, may they fly true, and your papers turn to confetti at the muzzle!

  3. #23
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    i wish i was in your country as we could fix this thing in a day. i never have problems as idaho ron doesnt either. last fall i took my custom inline muzzle loader out to my bench and loaded it with 100 grains of 209 powder and a 60 thousands wad and a 480 grain bullet that i single wrapped and swagged my self. i have a rebuilt old weaver 9 power tv screen scope on it and i carefully aimed at a tiny dark spot on the paper out there at 100 yards. the shot took out that spot. just what i wanted to see and it was still sighted in and still a one hole gun. work until you get that, and the science of shooting is constant, keep trying.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnson1942 View Post
    i wish i was in your country as we could fix this thing in a day. i never have problems as idaho ron doesnt either. last fall i took my custom inline muzzle loader out to my bench and loaded it with 100 grains of 209 powder and a 60 thousands wad and a 480 grain bullet that i single wrapped and swagged my self. i have a rebuilt old weaver 9 power tv screen scope on it and i carefully aimed at a tiny dark spot on the paper out there at 100 yards. the shot took out that spot. just what i wanted to see and it was still sighted in and still a one hole gun. work until you get that, and the science of shooting is constant, keep trying.
    Roger, you must be missing something here? There is nothing wrong with the way my guns shoot, the way my bullets patch, the way my paper comes off at the muzzle, etc. I couldn't be happier!

  5. #25
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    sorry, need to read every word, yes, i guess i missed something. im probably like the drunk in the room trying to keep up with the conversation, only im not drunk.

  6. #26
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    Nothing is absolute. And there are enough variables from person to person and rifle to rifle that one specific load will not work for everyone. That's what makes shooting these old style rifles so interesting.

    If I cast bullets, I would try the Lee bullet loaded as Ron suggests. If it didn't work I would not be surprised and would look for another combination. Maybe sized a bit differently, especially since my Lyman GPH has shallower rifling than most other BP barrels.

    After many years of shooting cast bullets the one thing that makes the most difference is how hard/soft the lead is. I learned from a guy who shot benchrest matches with cast bullets. He would not use lead unless he could verify the alloy exactly. 1% difference in tin or antimony would screw up his groups. He tried relying on hardness testing but it was not accurate enough for his purposes. As an engineer, I found that hardness testing was very inaccurate. One person's testing was difficult to compare to someone else's, especially with different testing machines.

  7. #27
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    This is the reason i usually do not read these posts of other then round ball (as god intended a muzzleloader to REALLY shoot) posts.

    I agree that all prolly has a good effect on both paper and game ... However ... Just report your findings and others that disagree should just keep it to themselves. No reason to argue a point when somebody finds a system that works for them. Part of the freedom to express ourselves for others education or pleasure and if ya dont agree then take it up in private rather then in public like some political humdrum. Dont we suffer enough on public press from politicians that want their pockets lined with as many followers as they can garner.

    We all just wanna have fun here ... If your agenda requires something else ... Go some where else!

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Reading the replies here how some wrap their bullets makes me curl my toes and chuckling to my self reading this. I guess I better get out and mow the grass and head to the range.....maybe I better head to the range then mow the grass

  9. #29
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    I guess the problem/s inured can be expected when Paper Patching.
    You already probably know paper patched boolits ideally are fired without their intentional resizing with a patch wrapped.

    Such a papers compressing technique (resizing) may inhibit a papers (easily) tear away ability just beyond muzzle.

    Just saying:
    Although promoted equal to Green Bar paper. Other papers like Onion Skin #9 and printer paper may actually contain more cotton. "I'm a firm believer in that possibility"

    Curious have you prior to patching conditioned your T/Cs barrels bore? (w/polishing compound)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverMax View Post
    I guess the problem/s inured can be expected when Paper Patching.
    You already probably know paper patched boolits ideally are fired without their intentional resizing with a patch wrapped.

    Such a papers compressing technique (resizing) may inhibit a papers (easily) tear away ability just beyond muzzle.
    OverMax, I know this well, Hence why i had custom molds built for .50 and .54 that drop bullets undersize and i wrap up, i have ZERO problems with papers sticking this way. As i have stated many times, there is a reason that true paper patch bullets are undersize to begin with.

  11. #31
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    ron got me hooked on the 500 sw boolits i would mould them thenize to.496 then wrap them like he shows.i shoot 90 grs of pyro p in all my whites,they shoot fantastic.ive had no complaints from elk to rabbits.they work for me and i thank ron for doing all the research and being willing to share

  12. #32
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    Seems like both a modern and muzzle loader would share the same wrapping technique. I know most modern rifle require a under-size bullet reduction of 8-9 thousands smaller than bore dia. Then wrapped up 2 thousands over-bore diameter to see decent accuracy. Your under-sizing to .53.8 and 49.4 just doesn't seem to me the boolit received its appropriate reduction diameter in its under-sizing.
    2 wraps of paper on a 53.8 boolit would measure in the neighbohood 54.8 or 54.9 maybe 55 cal is a real possibility. To seat a boolit near 55 cal in a 54 cal bore would require a piece of 1/2" cement re-rod and 5-lb hand-held maul.
    Frankly: It would be beneficial to know the actual true diameter of your bore before hand so to eliminate all the guess work. Slugging the Renegades bore. May take some thought on how to do properly. Do to a closed breech barrel.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverMax View Post
    Seems like both a modern and muzzle loader would share the same wrapping technique. I know most modern rifle require a under-size bullet reduction of 8-9 thousands smaller than bore dia. Then wrapped up 2 thousands over-bore diameter to see decent accuracy. Your under-sizing to .53.8 and 49.4 just doesn't seem to me the boolit received its appropriate reduction diameter in its under-sizing.
    2 wraps of paper on a 53.8 boolit would measure in the neighbohood 54.8 or 54.9 maybe 55 cal is a real possibility. To seat a boolit near 55 cal in a 54 cal bore would require a piece of 1/2" cement re-rod and 5-lb hand-held maul.
    Frankly: It would be beneficial to know the actual true diameter of your bore before hand so to eliminate all the guess work. Slugging the Renegades bore. May take some thought on how to do properly. Do to a closed breech barrel.
    Houston we have a problem! OverM, The custom PP bullet mold i had built for my .54s is .533, and i went with .494 for my .50 Cal, my onion skin paper ads 8 thou to the overall diameter, that would bring .533 up to .541, i have both a .538 and a .539 sizing die, after the 2 wraps of onion skin paper (and depending on the Gun) i send them through either the .538 or .539, i have 6 54 cal rifles, 2 of them are tighter bored and require the .538 finish size, the others love the .539

    By sending them through a sizing die, all i am doing is 'snugging' the paper up, making for a convenient package to carry in the field. The handle weight alone on my press will send them through the die, i am NOT sizing the bullet at all! My rifles load VERY easy with just my thumb and index finger on the Ramrod, yet there is enough pressure i feel confident the bullet will not back off the charge.
    Last edited by 54bore; 04-27-2017 at 07:28 AM.

  14. #34
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    The absolute best shooting bullet i have ever shot in my .45 Cal Green Mountain LRH is a PP bullet from Buffalo Arms, it is .444 Diameter, and 400 Grains, I patch these with the same 2 wraps of onion skin paper and send them through a .449 Sizing die to 'snug' the paper up a bit.

    This bullet shooting so well is what inspired me to have a .494 mold built for my .50 Cals

  15. #35
    Banned bigted's Avatar
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    I agree with lead pot ... I have enjoyed fair success patching for cartridge guns and both black and smokeless powders ... Both and all my wrapping has been with wet onion paper and no greese. I have fooled just a bit with muzzleloaders and patching and i wet wrap em too

    Pray tell why is this a no no with muzzleloaders? Beginning with a smaller then "BORE" boolit and smooth at that works very well for me.

    Just askin is all as i like to learn new things that make sense.

  16. #36
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    As told prior. Slit the patch papers sidewall at the time of the boolit loading. That is indeed a easy resolve.

  17. #37
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    A misconception that i feel needs to be addressed here, If you go and watch Ron's youtube video he CLEARLY states that this is NOT anything new (paper patching) He says, but my method is a bit different, it's similar, but with a 'Twist' to it. I adopted Ron's method of paper patching and i really like doing it this way, My ONLY disagreement is the size of the bullet dropped from the mold, That is all! I feel a bullet needs to drop from the mold UNDERSIZED and be patched up, instead of patching a bullet that is already oversize and then Shoving it through a reducing die. (This is where i feel the stuck papers come in) But fact is i have done it EXACTLY his way and i had AWESOME results, i just chose to go a different route and have molds made that dropped my bullets undersize. Other than that i am doing the same exact dry wrap and sizing 1-2 thousands underbore. I understand there is others ways of Paper Patching, and maybe they are better? But i chose this route and i have had great success with it, and i will continue on doing it this way.

  18. #38
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    I would like to end this thread with an apology to my friend Idahoron. As i have stated before, if you follow idahoron's method WORD FOR WORD with the Lee S&W 500 bullet (C501-440-RF) it is proven, and it works, Not only does it work, it works REALLY GOOD! The guy put a lot of time and effort in this project, after Ron figured out how to make it work and he was confident in it, he came on here and freely shared with any, and everyone how to do it, That was pretty darn cool of him to do!! As to his paper patching technique, I ABSOLUTELY love patching this way!! Ron does NOT state that his way is the right way, the wrong way, the best way, etc. he CLEARLY states his way is Different, Similar but with a 'Twist to it' Simply something he tried and it worked well for him! I am doing this exact same method with GREAT success for 3 different Calibers.

    When i started this thread i was frustrated to say the least, i have been tinkering around with the Lyman Plains bullet in .50 and .54 with REALLY good success, then i tried some harder bullets in the 9-9.5BHN range out of my old Stock 1:48 twist pre warning Renegade, i was lucky to hit the Mountain side!!! And on top of that i was finding a few of my bullet papers all the way to my target (Hard lead is NOT your friend in MANY ways here) The day before this i had the Shot the same rifle, the same bullets (except soft lead) and they shot fine, i did not find any papers at my target etc.
    As much as it might seem, i really did NOT intend to bash Ron here, I didn't think i was doing so when i started this, If you go back and read word for word what I SAID you should see frustration, and me feeling there is a better way. In my mind i was thinking how many young guys that know very little about this stuff will run down to the local tire store and buy a bucket of wheel weights and give this a try? I will tell you now from my personal experience if you mess with harder lead FAILURE awaits you in more than one way, From sizing, to shooting, Soft lead is your friend here!! If you follow Idahoron's recipe for this bullet to the T it will work good for you, it did for me, and it has for MANY others. Try and tinker with it much and you will have problems, There is VERY little margin for error when sizing, and patching both the Lyman plains, and the Lee S&W 500 bullet.

    On a side note here is an inspirational target from my friend Harleysboss, i sent him some Sized and Patched Lyman plains 54 Cal bullets to try in his Fast Twist MK85 Knight, This is a 3 shot Group (yep 3 in there!) at 50 yards (these were SOFT PURE LEAD) i sent him some of both, He hasn't shot the harder bullets yet, i am curious if he will have the same issues with the harder bullets like i had? But then again he is shooting a Fast Twist, That could DEFINITELY make the difference. Cmon Harleysboss get those things shot! LOL

    Attachment 194205
    Last edited by 54bore; 04-28-2017 at 08:45 AM.

  19. #39
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    Great shooting Harleyboss. Lewis's bullets look great and look like they shoot great.

  20. #40
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    Gentlemen, depending upon the boolit (alloy, weight, base design, bearing length), the rifling (depth, twist, cross section), the paper and the powder used you may find that compressing the paper by sizing prior to loading helps. And you may find that it doesn't. You might also find that using the water proofing formula published by Paul Matthews works for you. Or not.

    How the bullet expands to fill the bore, and in the process compresses the paper patch, is the major player. Sometimes it looks like ironing out the paper with sizing it on the bullet allows you to create a thinner tough patch with the largest diameter lead you can create. And that doing so can reduce the amount of expansion the lead has to do in the bore. In the past I relied upon sizing the bullet and then wrapping because I found in the late seventies the cigarette papers would tear off on the little holes in Lyman sizer dies. The solution was like when you tell the doctor it hurts when I do this and he replies "Then don't do that!" So I stopped sizing patched boolits. Nowadays the push through sizers from Lee and Tennessee Bullet Company both work pretty good. Lee has the better pusher ram. Both companies will make almost any diameter you might need. The .399" from TBC I use for a .401" bore rifle works good but it was a DIY project to get die alignment... for longer boolits I think at least for now the Lee is the better product. For more typical (stubbier) minies and carbine bullets for 1860's type arms TBC sizers will do very well. In the case of the .52 bore and adapting various molds and various papers to use, the only practical solution is to size after patching.

    Some other options are Lyman sizers from .250" to .600" in .001 increments available from S&S. Also they have push through sizers for nominally .69 caliber in .005 increments. I use the .695".

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check