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Thread: rate of twist too fast?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    rate of twist too fast?

    The rem 700 cdl 35 whelen has a twist rate of 1-12, which is great for the 280-300 gr boolits, but my question is does that make it more susceptible to boolit skidding, especially with the 200-250gr higher velocity loads?alloy is lyman #2 with .5% copper, HT'd at between 22-24 I think ( I don't have a bhn tester). thank you for you help!~
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    My mistake, I re- checked and it is 1-16. was probably thinking of the 700 bdl in 30-06 which I was thinking of rebarreling. the CZ in 9.3X62 is so much nicer anyways, I just wish there were more molds and loads out there for it. but I can work up my loads, I will just take it slow, but I still haven't decided which powder would be best. will probably be acc2495, rel12 or imr4895.
    Norinco SKS
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Why not try to approach your velocity by trying to achieve 140,000 RPM? I think that 120K through 150K RPM is suggested for J-type projectiles, depending on profiles.

    V = ( RPM x twist ) / 720

    V = (140,000 x 12t ) / 720

    V = 1,680,000 / 720

    V = 2,333 FPS

    If a well made cast can spin @ an optimum of 140K RPM then 2,333 FPS would be the max. speed. From there you could look for the proper load to shoot off the barrel 'node', meaning tuning down from there in small increments of .3 grains until the rounds come together in a tight group.

    If the casts are not so integrally solid...not having minute voids that cause high RPM imbalance or if they are not concentric enough then try going for 120K RPM which is still a good spin for getting the cast to track straight.

    I dunnoh...just spit-wadding an idea or two...charlie

    E D I T . . .
    On second thought, instead of my spit-wadding you might find much more sound advice here...

    from: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/goog...166j4251006j19

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    Last edited by OS OK; 04-20-2017 at 07:33 PM.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    2495 and I-4895 of them are the same burn rate [probably closer than H and I are] just use the one you got the most of.
    the 35 cal boolit range is 90grs up to about 300grs, I think you'll find something if you try a little harder.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    wow,osok, thatsa lotta info!thanks to both of you, I have neither powders, all I have needed so far is imr4198,bulseye, and rel7.so I need a good powder for 250-290gr boolits. i'll figger it out. thanks a lot!
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  6. #6
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    With the 16" twist you will not hit 140,000 RPM until over 3,000 fps. That is a bit out of reach for the Whelen with 280 - 300 gr bullets, cast or jacketed. With your alloy "bullet skid" is a non issue. 2300 to 2400 fps with 280 - 300 gr cast is realistic in the Whelen. Might consider slower powders such as Varget, AA4350, RL19 and H4831SC.

    Larry Gibson

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    whats your opinion on rel15?
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  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    You might try experimenting with 16 to 18g of Unique with a 200g boolit in your 1:16 Whelen.
    It's all chicken, even the beak!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oklahoma Rebel View Post
    whats your opinion on rel15?
    RL15 is a good powder but I have found it is not as consistent lot to lot as Varget or even 4064 (all are close to the same burn rate). Also it is more susceptible to variations in temperature as is 4064. Varget is an "Extreme" powder and performs much more consistently lot to lot and in varied temperatures. At close range under 150 yards there's not a lot of difference but at longer ranges or if you end up hunting in hot weather Varget performs the best. It also measures through powder throwers with better consistency.

    Larry Gibson

  10. #10
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Larry Gibson...I read this article . . .OEHLER'S WIZARDRY

    "Reprinted with permission of Shooting Times / November 1992" . . . http://www.dexadine.com/wizard.html

    ...about this piece of equipment.

    *My question is what does it cost to get this higher level of education? *Will it work with a mac or iPod?

    It seems that our old school ways of judging 'overpressure' are a bit archaic now that we can measure with such precision...If possible, I think I'd rather have this instrument than have another safe queen I might be lusting after.

    thanks...charlie
    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

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  11. #11
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    NO, twist does not change skid. It is just your boolit and alloy. You find what works. Powder is important too.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shuz View Post
    You might try experimenting with 16 to 18g of Unique with a 200g boolit in your 1:16 Whelen.
    WHY? I limit the stuff in revolvers.

  13. #13
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    OS OK

    *My question is what does it cost to get this higher level of education? *Will it work with a mac or iPod?

    I do not know if the M43 is back in production. Dr. Oehler has retired and turned the business over to John (don't know his last name). Last I talked with Dr. Oehler he was developing "screens" to measure the ballistics of artillery shells at 10,000+ meters for the military. The M83 is the industry standard and is still in production. It is expensive.

    I have $4,500 to $5000+ in my set up based on the dollars worth 10 years ago. That includes the M43 PBL, down range screens, dedicated lap top, carrying case and other accessories. The program I got is useable through Windows 8. I believe it could be used with MAC, don't know about IPOD though. My laptop is dedicated to just the M43 and I don't even go in the internet with it or load any other programs. That gives me the full operating capacity of the hard drive w/o any chance of hacking or malware.

    It seems that our old school ways of judging 'overpressure' are a bit archaic now that we can measure with such precision...

    That is so very true. I have bothered to study SAAMI's methods and recommended techniques of pressure measurement. I have discussed techniques and results with several ballisticians working for several major ammunition manufacturers. They all use Oehler M43s and M83s (Mostly 83s) on production guns to verify and double check the psi's of their runs of ammunition. They've found great confidence in the results which are comparable to the psi measurements of the peizo-transducers they use in load development. Many recalls of factory ammunition was based on loads developed with CUP measurements. The pressures then measured in production rifles showed something was askew, thus the recall.

    I thought when I got the M43 and began posting results here I would be inundated with requests to measure this load or that load, etc. To my surprise and chagrin instead I was met with considerable disbelief, criticism and even personal attacks. Seems some just do not like their beliefs to be discredited with facts. Oh well, to date I have conducted 2200 different tests on the M43. There have been a few problems such as batteries giving up the ghost, strain gauges coming loose, etc. but those are quickly discovered and easily dealt with. I have conducted extensive tests and load development for a smaller ammunition manufacturer, VV powder, a couple cast bullet manufacturers and a powder distributor.

    Currently I can pressure test 35 different cartridges from 22 Hornet up through 45-70. I have also pressure tested several other cartridges in friends and customers guns. The strain gauge can be permanently mounted on the bottom of the barrel so when the testing was done it was out of sight. I have also tested a lot of old and new military cartridges which provides a much clearer understanding of what the older actions were actually capable of withstanding. Those results meet with considerable criticism from internet commando's who believe everything posted as gospel except that which disagrees with their misconceived notions. Also from those that still believe the old disproven theories of even the best of old time gun writers. I used to by off on all those theories, old wives tales and myths even though many didn't always quite ring true. For some years I've learned to prefer to belief in facts as produced by actual testing. Since studying in depth ballistics and measuring the internal, external and terminal ballistics of numerous loads in numerous cartridges I prefer to believe in actual producible results. I have managed to shatter many of my own previously held beliefs.

    The last few weeks I've been testing a lot of commercial ammunition loaded pre SAAMI by the major manufacturers. It was all developed under the CUP pressure measuring system of yesteryear. Most of it was 165 and 180 gr loads. I found about half of it was actually well into magnum psi territory of todays peizo-transducer developed loads. Even with just the chronographed velocities common sense should tell us that with a 24" barreled 30-06 with 180 gr bullets if you're getting 2700 fps+ the cartridge is running some serious pressures. When the velocities approach or exceed 2800 fps then, well.......

    Larry Gibson
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 04-21-2017 at 01:59 PM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    from everything I read about reloading, I hear varget mentioned A lot, is it the unique of slow powders? thanks for all your help guys.
    44man, I think I have a pretty good thing going with my alloy, 5-5-89.5 (.5% cu)
    Norinco SKS
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  15. #15
    Boolit Master


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    Actually Varget is considered a "medium" burning powder.....on the slow end of it though. Of the medium burning powders I would be more inclined to consider 4895 as the "Unique" of that burning range.

    Larry Gibson

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by OS OK View Post
    Larry Gibson...I read this article . . .OEHLER'S WIZARDRY

    "Reprinted with permission of Shooting Times / November 1992" . . . http://www.dexadine.com/wizard.html

    .......
    That article and a conversation I had years ago with Mr. Jamison (about the M43 but also about his coyote hunting book) is why, when I could finally afford the luxury, I got my own Oehler M43 PBL. In the intervening years every time I developed a load for some cartridge I always thought as I also "lusted"....only if I had a M43........

    Larry Gibson

  17. #17
    Boolit Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Thanks Larry for your response. Shrug!
    I was guessing $2K or thereabouts and that I think I could squeak past the wife but in todays dollars for what you have spent, it's just unreachable for me and my hobby.
    I enjoy learning the science behind this hobby and looking at loads in different ways than a mere 'good enough' attitude.
    As far as I am concerned, on this forum, there is way too much of... 'it works for me' or, '4'' @ 100 yds. is good enough' . . . there is a serious lack of empirical evidence presented even if it's just a picture of some observation. Too much opinion and not enough proofs. Sad, too bad...this study of handloading goes a lot deeper than most here take it.
    For example, so many are so focussed on 'saving time', if it takes longer or more effort...then the option is out...that's sad.

    Sorry for your criticisms you have endured, I would think you would be a prized and valuable ongoing asset here, especially since you seem to be so willing to share hard earned empirical evidence.

    charlie
    “In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” G. Orwell

    "A handshake or your word is all it takes…don't screw that up."…charlie

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    thank you for that link, and I too have noticed, I guess I would say, nobody mentions many numbers. I like to hear the hows and why things work
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oklahoma Rebel View Post
    whats your opinion on rel15?
    I settled on Reloader 15 paired with LBT 275gr cg.
    I tried a lot of powders and jackets as well as this LBT cast.

    RL-15 and the LBT 275 became my Elk load for a few years.

    Other powders worked too. This was just the best.
    I am not near my notes but it shot in the 2350 -2425 FPS range in the Remington Classic 35 Whelen.
    Chill Wills

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    With the 16" twist you will not hit 140,000 RPM until over 3,000 fps. That is a bit out of reach for the Whelen with 280 - 300 gr bullets, cast or jacketed. With your alloy "bullet skid" is a non issue. 2300 to 2400 fps with 280 - 300 gr cast is realistic in the Whelen. Might consider slower powders such as Varget, AA4350, RL19 and H4831SC.

    Larry Gibson
    What Larry doesn't mention is that a rifle firing a 300-grain bullet at 2400 fps is going to back off that bullet VIGOROUSLY!
    Echo
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check