S&W K38 strength

[Bill*B]

One of my regrets is that I warped the crane of a fine K38 Combat Masterpiece with heavy loads. Wish I had stuck to standard pressure loadings.

[waco]

The 38 Special +P is an attempt to get a jacketed HP bullet expand in revolvers of various barrel lengths. If you are not trying to expand a JHP bullet, there no sense in running those pressures.

I favor the full charge wadcutter for social use against unfriendly human beings. A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye over a solid base wadcutter will prove very effective. I prefer the H&G 244 which has a dead flat nose. I like flat and really flat just must be the best. because of the deep bullet seating, the pressures will run higher thought not in the +P range.

For small game and range use I drop the charge to 3.0 grains of Bullseye.

Here is a pick of my Chief Special with such loads. I use these same loads in small and medium frame 38 by Smith and Wesson and Colt in various barrel lengths. Works well in all.

Addendum: This same bullet in 357 Mag cases over either 10/2400 or 7.5/AA5 gives about 1,100 fps and is a cracker jack load for the 357 revolver, giving great accuracy along the way.

I would agree with, and listen to Charles.

[44man]

The K is a classic. It does what it does without abuse. I have never seen a frame stretch, never seen a weak S&W. Wear without lube---Yes. front bushing dry and stretch must be the answer.
I have had cranes bent from TV slamming the cylinders shut. DON'T.
But I can't see a K harmed by +P.

[dubber123]

The K is a classic. It does what it does without abuse. I have never seen a frame stretch, never seen a weak S&W. Wear without lube---Yes. front bushing dry and stretch must be the answer.
I have had cranes bent from TV slamming the cylinders shut. DON'T.
But I can't see a K harmed by +P.

Me either actually, and I have a few. I am surprised by all the reports of damaged ones, I have run some hard for a lot of rounds, and can't make it happen. I lube the **** out of my guns though.

[35remington]

Well, there is Plus P and then there is PLUS P. Anyone who has seen the Speer #8 knows the difference. Speer#8 type loads will jack up a medium frame revolver, especially older ones, in reasonably short order.

As I said, handloaded standard pressure 38 is ample for most uses and can drive a 158 at 950 fps from a 4 inch. Not much more is really needed for most uses to which a 38 revolver is put.

[tazman]

Well, there is Plus P and then there is PLUS P. Anyone who has seen the Speer #8 knows the difference. Speer#8 type loads will jack up a medium frame revolver, especially older ones, in reasonably short order.

As I said, handloaded standard pressure 38 is ample for most uses and can drive a 158 at 950 fps from a 4 inch. Not much more is really needed for most uses to which a 38 revolver is put.

I have to agree. If I need more than what a 38 Special will do with a standard load, I am going to be using magnum loads anyway, or at least a larger handgun/caliber.
I remember the old Speer manual and how hot some of those loads were. I got rid of it for that reason.

[Drm50]

I have seen more J frames ruined with +P, than K frames. Especially the older light weight models. All in all I have seen more damage to guns with factory +P, than caused by handloading
mistakes. If you stick with intended ammo a S&W will last forever. If you want a SD load for your
M14 just buy a box of top shelf hollow points. I don't know how many S&Ws I have owned but
I have 50+ at present time. I still have ones bought new in 60s and several bought used in 60s.
From 22s to 44mags they have been the most trouble free and accurate revolvers I have owned.
Back in 70s I dabbled in Colts but went back to S&W, now even in S&Ws I only look for the older
models that were P&R with 3Ts.

[Outpost75]

Air Force experience with the M15 .38 Special K-frame revolver firing the PGU/12B 130-grain FMJ +P load was that the guns didn't last long at all.

Police experience with the S&W M19 .357 revolver was that as long as .38 Special standard pressure ammo was used for practice and qualification, and +P or .357 used only for limited duty use, in a 5:1 ratio, that the guns held up, BUT once training and doctrine changed such that law enforcement officers trained and qualified with the duty ammo they carried, the Model 19, even with annual maintenance, would fail prematurely.

THAT is why S&W came up with the "L" frame.

Do your own Rockwell hardness tests on your K38 frame. If you find that the frame will not even register on the Rockwell "C" scale, therein lies the clue and you should not shoot +P in it. Period.

If your S&W Model 15 or 19 frame does not register Rc24 Min. I wouldn't count on it lasting very long with .357 magnum or .38 Special +P+ LE loads such as Q4070, and even at that, it will be less durable than a Colt Trooper, S&W 28, Ruger, etc.

FWIW my Ruger Service Six I built at the Armorer's School when attending there in 1985 tested Rc40. I kept a logbook on it and when I sent it back to the factory for refurb when notified that they were using up the last remaining parts in Customer Service, this was back in 2002, the revolver had logged over 100,000 .38 Special loads, most of those being standard pressure lead loads, and perhaps 1000 Q4070 +P+ during the life of the gun until then. This was a .38 Special.

After 100,00 rounds they fitted a new "long" cylinder to take up the 0.003" end-shake which had developed, replaced the pawl and bolt and reblued it. This is the DA test target which came back with it.
They also returned it with the whacked coppers used to verify striker indent, 0.012"! which is about 0.002" more than your average S&W .38 does, and meets the military spec for the 9mm M9 pistol.

Attachment 194470

[Char-Gar]

Anecdote: The first S&W Combat Magnum (later Model 19) I ever saw came out of the holster of Bill Jordon out on the Rio Grande River. He and another Border Patrolman rolled up on me while I was launching rounds into the river bank on the Mexican side of the river. He joined in the plinking. He took his Combat Magnum out of his holster, unloaded the hot loaded cast HP rounds and filled it with 38 Special wadcutter target loads from his Jeep. He fired very few 357 Magnum loads through his revolver.

I got to shoot his revolver that afternoon long years ago albeit with wadcutter target loads.

Addendum: I am not a science/engineering type guy like Outpost and don't know Rockwell hardness from a hole in the ground, but I have seen several bushel baskets full of Smith and Wesson 38/357 J and K frames that were shot loose with high pressure loads.

I still use standard pressure loads in my J and K frames for general shooting. I will stuff some hotter loads in there for social purposes, but I only shoot enough of those to verify point of impact. I do shoot some low end 357 Magnum loads through a Ruger OM Blackhawk and that fine revolver seems to be everlasting.

[Wayne Dobbs]

That must've been one of life's great moments, Char-Gar! To plink the Rio Grande Mexican bank with Bill Jordan and HIS Combat Magnum! I met him several times late in his life and truly enjoyed that, but wish I had been able to shoot with him.

[Char-Gar]

That must've been one of life's great moments, Char-Gar! To plink the Rio Grande Mexican bank with Bill Jordan and HIS Combat Magnum! I met him several times late in his life and truly enjoyed that, but wish I had been able to shoot with him.

I was only about 17 and too stupid to appreciate the circumstances. I knew who he was, but that is about all. At that time, I was also shooting allot of Skeet and Bill shot at the same place and we were on the same squad several times. In fact we were in the same squad when I shot my first 25 score.

[fecmech]

Air Force experience with the M15 .38 Special K-frame revolver firing the PGU/12B 130-grain FMJ +P load was that the guns didn't last long at all.

I wasn't aware that those 130 gr. loads were made in +P. When I was on a Guard pistol team we were occasionally give some M41 ball ammo to play with. That stuff was really junk. A little over 700 fps with a 130 gr bullet out of my model 14 and 4-5" 50 yd groups. About the only thing it was good for was plinking tin cans.

[Outpost75]

From the Wikipedia entry:

Attachment 194555

A request for more powerful .38 Special ammunition for use by Air Police and security personnel resulted in the Caliber .38 Special, Ball, PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge.^[19] Issued only by the U.S. Air Force, the PGU-12/B had a greatly increased maximum allowable pressure rating of 20,000 psi, sufficient to propel a 130-grain FMJ bullet at 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s) from a solid 6-inch (150 mm) test barrel, and about 950–980 ft/s from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.^[19] The PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge differs from M41 Special ammunition in two important respects—the PGU-12/B is a much higher-pressure cartridge, with a bullet deeply set and crimped into the cartridge case.

[376Steyr]

Did the USAF +P ammo have crimped-in primers too? I kind of recall finding a few pieces of fired military .38 brass with primer crimps over the years, and wondering why somebody had felt it necessary to put a crimp on revolver loads.

[Outpost75]

Yes, mine has crimped primers and LC79 headstamp.

[fecmech]

My M41 WCC 74 cases were uncrimped and have been excellent for reloading. I start5ed with over 2K but am down now to about 800.

[5.7 MAN]

From the Wikipedia entry:

Attachment 194555

A request for more powerful .38 Special ammunition for use by Air Police and security personnel resulted in the Caliber .38 Special, Ball, PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge.^[19] Issued only by the U.S. Air Force, the PGU-12/B had a greatly increased maximum allowable pressure rating of 20,000 psi, sufficient to propel a 130-grain FMJ bullet at 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s) from a solid 6-inch (150 mm) test barrel, and about 950–980 ft/s from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.^[19] The PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge differs from M41 Special ammunition in two important respects—the PGU-12/B is a much higher-pressure cartridge, with a bullet deeply set and crimped into the cartridge case.

I picked up a couple of boxes of this ammo a few years back to go with my model 15, I can post some pics later. I carried it daily in the AF and when we qualified you could tell it was definitely hotter. I fired a few in my 4" model 15 and they ran right around 950 FPS.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Just thought I`d drop this news gem on the site. An online gun auction ended last night. A S&W 14 - 3 with Pachmyer grips went for $450 plus auction commision fee. It looked to be in very nice condition with good blueing.Robert