44 magnum Super blackhawk leading.

[Bazoo]

After finishing the box of bullets I made sized .431 and lubed with carnauba red, I checked the bore, and I had leading at the forcing cone, and about an inch into the barrel. The bullets were plane base.

I bought a .433 sizing die off a member here. And I made a dummy cartridge with it. It chambered, but with no room to spare. And it bulged the case badly, and didnt look "right". I didnt try shooting any of them cause I aint going to make ammo that looks that "off". Maybe If i had a resizing die that sized the case on the large size it wouldnt look like a goof, and it'd be okay.

So I cleaned it thoroughly.

The forcing cone, as always, seemed rough to me, so I figured heck with it. I chucked a cleaning rod section in a drill, and using a patch loop, turned a piece of scotchbrite pad in the forcing cone. I lubed it with hoppes as thats what I had handy. Dont get me wrong, I didnt grind the stuffings out of it and did my best to keep out of the rifling with the pressure centered. It did remove the machining marks after a minute or so. Then I turned a patch covered with the finest polishing compound I had (green) and that shined it nice. I will report back if this helps any.

Next I will try some gc bullets again.

I aint got to completely cure the leading issue to be satisfied, but Its got to improve a fair amount. If I had shot 300 rounds instead of 50, with the same amount of leading, i'd say, cleaning my gun is part of life if it dont get any better.

[Larry Gibson]

If it still leads after polishing add 2 % tin to alloy. Allow 7 - 10 days to age bullets if AC'd before sizing, loading.

If it still leads use NRA 50/50 or BAC lube.

[Grmps]

Due to the inconsistency of modern COWW, range scrap and non-commercial lead I prefer to mix large batches together to get a common alloy to deal with. I'm real scientific in testing unknown non-commercial alloys for smelting. I drop it on a concrete floor and if it doesn't have a dull thud, if it rings I put it in my alloy smelting pile. When I get a large batch I smelt it twice, once seperating each smelt into groups and the second using equal parts of each group to create ingot of common aloy. I get this alloy XRF'd then I know exactly how much tin/monotype/pure I need to add to get my desired aloy.
Alloys with equal quantities of tin and antimony have been popular and highly effective for a long time. IE. Lyman#2 5-5-90 or 3-3-94 which I believe Larry is trying to get your COWW alloyed to.

[Bazoo]

Thank you for the replies.

Larry, There is some tin in these bullets. I aint sure exactly how much as I added some to the pot when casting when I was having problems and experimenting to figure out what turned out to be a brain flub on mold temperature. Also, its been 2 weeks or so since I cast these bullets.

Im lubing with carnauba red now. Did you know this?, and are still suggesting 50/50 or BAC? If so, why you reckon the CR aint good enough?



Today I tried a small number (11) gas checked bullets sized to .431. 11 because thats all I had cast up. This leaded the forcing cone, but the rifling was clean.

Cleaned it.

Then I tried 3 cylinders of PB bullets sized to .433. This leaded the forcing cone and about an inch of rifling. I was surprised, as everyone has told me to size to cylinder throats and my problems will go away.

So yall got any other ideas?

I'll try a greater number of the 431 sized GC bullets next and see how my results are. I dont want to have to resort to GC only bullets as they cost more.

[Loudenboomer]

Caranuba Red is a very good lube. IMHO Not the first choice in the 44 mag though. I think you will have better results with BAC. It's softer but it works well even past 2000 fps.

[Larry Gibson]

I know this is heresy but sometimes "fit" is not "king", especially as it applies to revolver cylinder throats. Sometimes it is the "court jester" as you've found out. Here's the problem; in cylinder throats at .432 +/- a bullet sized at .432 will have to be swaged down to .429 in a barrel of that groove size. Then as it is in the barrel it gets sized down another .003 - .005+/- because it rides over a layer of lube/fouling between it and the bore surface. The more the bullet has to be swaged down at the throat the greater the odds leading will occur there unless a proper lube is used.

In this case Carnauba Red is not a "proper lube".....that should be obvious from the leading. It is not doing the job under the circumstances of use in this case. Quite frankly I've shot a bajillion .429/.430 sized bullets in numerous .44s with cylinder throats ranging from .429 to .434 (pin gauged) with out any leading and with excellent accuracy. I didn't know I was all wrong until I read the magazine article years ago that started all this "size" to fit the cylinder throat". I even bought a mould (GB on this forum) that gave me .435 "Keith" bullets. I sized them to "fit" the throats of my Ruger BH (.432) and my Hawes Western Marshal (.433- .434). With .430 sized bullets they both shot quite well and I was expecting awesome results.....what I got was improved cylinder groups with both medium level loads and magnum level loads......went back to .430 sized bullets and accuracy went back to as good as I can shoot. Additional testing has demonstrated to me that forcing a cast bullet .003 or more over groove diameter into a barrels forcing cone is detrimental to accuracy. Bottom line with the bullet (Accurate 43-240A and AG) you're using I suggest you size them at .430 for your Ruger.

So why the leading with CR lube? The bullet you're using is a WFN with the nose tapering from full diameter. Thus you have that portion of the bullet plus the drive band (crimp groove is between them) at what ever you size them or at what the cylinder sizes them to being forced into and swaged down by the barrel forcing cone WITH OUT any lube on the bare alloy as that is done...... you've found with the larger the bullet the more leading there is......that should tell you something. It is leading there because there is no CR lube in that area. The forcing cone get's coated from bullet one and leading builds up there and afterword's is pushing leading further down the barrel. CR is a HV lube that works sometimes quite well at lower velocity but sometimes it fails miserably simply because of the wrong alloy, the wrong sizing and the wrong bullet design. You got lucky (?) and have all three......That's why it is leading. Let me say that CR is an excellent HV lube when properly used and I'm not criticizing it at all. It just isn't working the way you're using it.

I suggest you switch to BAC (a softer lube with CR in it) or an NRA 50/50 lube. Both are soft and will lube better at the lower velocities of even magnum 44s. What you might try is size your bullets .430 and lube with CR. Then TL them with a light coat of LLA and let thoroughly dry before loading. That will give you some alox lube up front. I use that most often on hard cast commercial bullets that lead because of the too hard wax lubes most have on them. Leading then is either non existent or minimal.

As to the alloy, okay, so you added "some" tin but don't know how much........add 1% more. The tin combines with the antimony in equal amounts up through 5% each to form the sub metal SbSn. That sub metal stays in solution in the lead during the hardening/aging of the bullet. That means the antimony present in COWWs won't harden separately from the lead. That gives a much better alloy (95- 2.5- 2 to 2.5 %s) and it casts much better.

[DougGuy]

Lot of good info here especially Larry Gibson's input. OP -may- have a rough forcing cone as well, Ruger IS well known for shipping revolvers with a radially oriented collection of tool marks where the forcing cone usually is. A call to 4D rentals for rental of their kit will fix a bad forcing cone, they have a very good video on using the cutter.

[Bazoo]

Larry, thank you for taking the time to explain that. That makes perfect sense. I noticed last night after firing the last batch of test ammo, that there was some pieces of lube left in the cylinder throats. It didnt register until reading your post.

[gwpercle]

An easy to make effective handgun boolit lube is 3 parts beeswax and 1 part lithium grease (Lucas Red-N-Tacky). Good old Lithi-Bee. I keep coming back to it and no harder to make than beeswax and Crisco. Those magnum loads just need a little extra lubrication that the lithium grease seems to add. Gas checks will help too.
Good luck with the SBH.
Gary

[Bazoo]

Upon further inspection. After firing the .433 sized bullets, lubed with CR, I have a heck of a lot of lube in the end of the chamber just before the beginning of the throats. When the bullets were sized smaller, there was a small amount of lube left in the end of the chamber, but nothing like this. I will get some different lube and try that next, along with sizing .430 when the die arrives.


What Larry says is what I want to hear to some degree, but it also make a lot of sense as he describes very well what is happening. I hope that .430 sized bullets will give me good results, even with large cylinder throats, as I want to be able to utilize other bullet designs without having to buy custom molds of a larger size. The accurate 43-240-A&AG is what I have to work with at present, other than a lee 430-310-RF.

I appreciate everyones replies, and their time and effort in trying to help me understand, and to resolve this problem. I will continue experimenting as time and money allows.

[DougGuy]

OP, there is also the possibility of sending the gun back to Ruger, just say that it doesn't group well and leads the bore something fierce, if it doesn't group for them they will repair it on their dime, and you may come out with a new cylinder with more appealing throat diameters..

[Bazoo]

DG, that is a good idea. I will keep it in mind.

[Bazoo]

Okay. I have acquired some BAC lube, cleaned out the sizer, and lubed and sized a box worth of bullets to .431. We'll see how these do. Next i'll try changing the alloy I think. I have some alloy that is almost identical to electrotype that I can try, sep'n I want it to work with ww alloy if'n it will.

[OlDeuce]

Okay. I have acquired some BAC lube, cleaned out the sizer, and lubed and sized a box worth of bullets to .431. We'll see how these do. Next i'll try changing the alloy I think. I have some alloy that is almost identical to electrotype that I can try, sep'n I want it to work with ww alloy if'n it will.

I've had my 44 mag Super Blackhawk sense the mid 70s it's a 7 1/2'' barreled shooter......Most all my hunting was done with it up to the mid '80s !!!
what I did to get the distance was to shoot at a 55gal drum at 200yds!!!!! but I did start at a 100yds than 150yds than the 200 yd mark!!!! lots of shooting
to get comfortable with the distance .

Ol Deuce

[Bazoo]

I aint been able to keep the dang thang from leading, much less try for accuracy. But with a handgun, i have a 2/3 ipsc I can hit at 125 yards. I wouldnt chance a handgun shot past about 60 yards though.

[OlDeuce]

I aint been able to keep the dang thang from leading, much less try for accuracy. But with a handgun, i have a 2/3 ipsc I can hit at 125 yards. I wouldnt chance a handgun shot past about 60 yards though.

Your not living until you take a antilope at 200yds with your .44 !!! I can't do it now but when I was 1/2 my age that was the best I could do !!!! Ol Deuce

[Bazoo]

It would be nice... but I aint got the skills yet. I can hold 6" at 50 with a handgun, once I get used to it. I have been able to a little better, if I was really familiar with the gun.

[OlDeuce]

It would be nice... but I aint got the skills yet. I can hold 6" at 50 with a handgun, once I get used to it. I have been able to a little better, if I was really familiar with the gun.

It takes lots of shots to do it LoL Lots of shots Ol Deuce

[Bazoo]

I fired the cartridges made with BAC lube and sized .431, It was some better, but still leaded the forcing cone some, and just a wisper in the beginning of the barrel. It was the best so far, will report back as experimentation continues.

[gnostic]

My SBH leads up with bullets sized under .430, with as little as five grains of Bulls Eye.