44 magnum Super blackhawk leading.

[Bazoo]

My 4 5/8 super blackhawk 44 magnum is leading.

Bullet is accurate 434240A or 434240AG.
Lube is 2:1 Beeswax/crisco, on the hard side. Powder is
19.80 grains of AA9 from a lee dipper, is just over a starting load. Edit: Actually, this is near max. I was using load books USA, And it does list it as on the lower side in one section, but according to other sources it is not.
Alloy is straight wheel weights.
Hornady gas checks
Sized .429

Now... I started with no gas check. And I got leading. From forcing cone all the way to the muzzle, streaks following the rifling, and then when cleaned, a concentration at the threads. So I surmised, i have a constriction there.

I was suggested to size .430. But havent picked up a sizer in .430 yet.

So i just got around to trying it with gas checks... all the while I was thinking, Gas checks will surely give me little to no leading. I still have leading. Perhaps not quite as bad, but a good amount at the threads, and at the muzzle, with less between.

I can slide a bullet into my throats, and my calipers register them at .430 or larger.

So.... my next course of action should be sizing larger... correct?

Should I consider a different lube? Either before or after sizing larger?

Up until now... i've never had a problem with leading, but i've always used low pressure cartridges, 45acp and 38 special, and 357magnum with gas checks. All using the same lube, and with wheel weights.

Thanks for any encouragement.

[DougGuy]

Boolits are undersized, you are getting gas cutting while in the cylinder and it continues into the barrel. You can size to fit the throats and see how that works, -OR- you can use a softer alloy and definitely a soft lube, and let the pressure from firing obturate the boolit to fit both the cylinder and the bore.

Mixing coww with pure lead at equal parts, then adding a bit of tin will give you probably the best alloy for that gun, 50/50+2% which with softer lube you would likely never need to clean the bore as long as your boolits are larger than the bore and they make a good seal.

With throats at .430" you may want to consider having them sized to .4315" and moving to a .431" boolit, this would be a good arrangement provided none of the throats are already larger than .4315"

[Bazoo]

Thank you for the advice DougGuy.

I will measure my throats again to make sure. Should I go to the trouble to slug the throats, or would measuring be accurate enough with the inside measurement part of my calipers?

I want to stick with wheel weight alloy, as its the easiest and cheapest for me at present. I do feel like my lube is not soft enough, and that it isnt good enough, But im only going to change one thing at a time. I might change the lube before I change the size, as a reference.

[woodsie57]

Maybe don't size them at all- I've had good luck w/ lee TL 240's, straight whl wt lead- no sizing die, from my Redhawk, lubed w/ JPW-Alox

[ShooterAZ]

You pretty much answered your questions already, size to 431 (.429 is WAY too small) and switch lube. White label BAC works well for me, might give it a try.

[Char-Gar]

Calipers won't give an accurate measurement of a round hole. Even though small, the caliber blades have a flat edge which is not allow the calipers to measure the full diamter of a hole. Your cylinder throats are more likely in the .431 - .432 range.

Some folks use pin gauges to measure holes and that works. I use a Starett expandable hole gauge and measure that with a good micrometer. Calipers have their use in a reloading shop, but measuring round holes is not one of them.

[DougGuy]

Thank you for the advice DougGuy.

I will measure my throats again to make sure. Should I go to the trouble to slug the throats, or would measuring be accurate enough with the inside measurement part of my calipers?

Caliper is probably the worst way to measure a small diameter ID like a cylinder throat. And they're not really a good way to measure a slug either, you need a mic that reads in .0001" for this to be honest. Mitutoyo digimatic on ebay about $40 used, great mics.

I want to stick with wheel weight alloy, as its the easiest and cheapest for me at present. I do feel like my lube is not soft enough, and that it isnt good enough, But im only going to change one thing at a time. I might change the lube before I change the size, as a reference.

WW is fine, but it may be a bit too hard to obturate to the throats or the bore with your starting loads. This would actually contribute to leading. Change the lube, then see if a .431" will slide into the throats from the front..

The *perfect* fit is when you got the boolit sized .001" to .002" over groove diameter of the barrel, and the throats sized .0005" to .001" over the boolit diameter. This way the throats won't size the boolit down before it even gets out of the cylinder, and you are presenting a boolit to the forcing cone which is over groove diameter so you have some lead to swage into the rifling and make a good seal.

Even once this perfect fitment has been achieved, you still need a soft lube and you will likely not find a more suitable alloy than 50/50+2% it just works and works good but go ahead at your speed, change the lube, shoot the gun, go to a .431" with soft lube, shoot some more, etc....

[Bookworm]

Let's look at the load.

According to Accurate Load Data version 3.5, a 240g LSWC load starts at 18.2, and goes to 20.2 grains of AA9.

You don't have a load just over start, you have a load approaching max.

Perhaps back it off just a bit, and try it again ?

[44man]

Absolutely get a better lube. I use only Felix and some of my revolvers have not had the bores cleaned as long as 5 years. I keep cylinders clean so new STP can be applied.
I am not a "fit" with my .44. The boolit I shoot most is water dropped WW at .430" to .431". My groove is .430" and throats are .4324". The RD shoots great at .432" and I think most important is a little over groove. I will not shoot any over throat size.
Slug throats with a pure RB and get good mikes. Most Rugers run about .430" groove so your .429" IS too small.
I have never believed in expanding a softer boolit to fit with powder. If a boolit is soft enough the expand past thread restrictions, it is slumped anyway.
Fast powders are worse on a boolit even if a low pressure load because pressure is instant. You want peak a little into the barrel. 296 and 2400 has proven best.
Soft also makes it hard to get proper case tension without sizing the boolit when seating, not good in a revolver.
Next is to toss magnum primers, they have too much pressure and will move boolits before powder burn. I have used the Fed 150 since about 1979.
Nobody understands GC's, they are not scrapers. never shoot a GC boolit without one because you change drive length and open paths for gas. The GC is a "SKID" stop to grip rifling and seal gas escape.

[44man]

I move to a Fed 155 for the .475, .500's and 45-70 revolver. The .45 Colt is borderline and works good with a WW primer. The .45 ACP is too small for any LP primer and the .454 needs a LP mag, both of these are wrong. Case size and capacity determine the primer.

[Bazoo]

I slugged my bore, and cylinder throats. The bore at muzzle sizes to .429. The bore when a bullet is driven through sizes .430. And the cyldinder throats measure .433 for 4, and .434 for 2.

I know Its suggested to size to cylinder throats, and I know mine are large. So, what is the best compromise? Should I still size to throat diameter?

Thanks, ~Bazoo

[Lloyd Smale]

agree with the others you need your bullets at least 430 and you need to get rid of that black powder lube and get a better lube. Try some of lar's lubes. There about as cheap as you can make it yourself and are great lubes. Hes an advertiser here.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

this is good stuff http://www.lsstuff.com/

[Lloyd Smale]

that's the stuff!

this is good stuff http://www.lsstuff.com/

[Larry Gibson]

Your using COWW alloy, A GC and bullets are sized .429 - .430 and you get leading......it is the lube that is failing. Get some White label 50/50 or BAC.

I understand this is heresy but I have been shooting 44 magnums since '68 and shot a bajillon COWW cast bullets through them sized .429 lubed with an NRA 50/50 lube at 1250 - 1400+ fps w/o any leading. Back in the day a 1" six shot group at 25 yards was considered excellent. I could do that with all the Rugers and Hawes I had using Lyman moulds and sizing at .429.

I pin gauge the throats and bore.

The Hawes I still have has .433 - .434 throats and a .429 barrel. My Ruger FTBH has .431 -.432 throats and a .429 barrel. I have spent money on one revolver having the throats reamed, they were well done and the same at .433. I have spent more money on custom over size moulds so the bullet could be sized the "fit". Spent more money on different size sizers to get the perfect "fit". What I found was all with .429 - .430 groove diameter barrels gave the best accuracy if the bullets were at groove diameter or not more than .002 over groove diameter regardless of how well the bullet "fit" the throats. When the cast bullets were sized more than .002 over groove the revolver would no longer pass the 1" at 25 yards with 6 shot test. Considering the bullet is sized by the barrel and the lube it must ride over to not lead down .003 - .005 smaller than the groove diameter if we add another .003+ over groove diameter the bullet gets really disfigured before it gets out the barrel. The less the bullet has to swage down in transition between the cylinder throats and the bore the more accurate it will be. All of my factory .44s shoot the best with the bullets sized at .429 or .430........yes, I know I am a heretic but that's what I've found.

I suggest simply trying a known proven lube and adding 2% tin to your COWW alloy. Most COWWs these days has little to no tin in it and you may be getting more antimonal wash than "leading". The tin will combine with the antimony, form a sub metallic SbSn which will stay in solution in the lead. That will give you a much better alloy, the bullets will have a higher BHN and it will prevent antimonal wash and you will cast better bullets.

My most accurate 44 magnum is my Colt Anaconda. It has straight throats (Rugers are tapered) that all pin out at .429. The barrel is .429 so the bullets are a perfect fit. My Ruger Vaquero 44-40 also has .429 throats and a .429 barrel. It also is extremely accurate. Bullets are sized .429 for both of those. As previously mentioned my Ruger FTBH with .431 -.432 shoots more accurate than I can and I use .430 sized bullets. Groups open with .432 sized bullets.....they just get swaged down too much when shot through the .429 barrel.

My apologies to Doug as I know he provides an excellent service. However, I've not found any need to ream/uniform any Ruger cylinder throats.......

Your humble and friendly heretic

Larry Gibson

[tdoyka]

i shoot a ruger sbh(4 5/8" barrel) in 44 mag too. i've shot a .431" 220gr wc(coww), .429" 250gr hp(40:1),.432" 275gr ranch dog(coww and 5% tin), and a .431" 280gr wfngc(bought from montana bullets, i guess its 22bhn). i guess that i've shot around 1500 boolits and it does not lead up. i've bought the sbh last year and i never slugged my cylinder throats or bore. the cylinder does .432" boolit just fine, i could probably put a .433" or .434" boolit into it but .429"-.432" boolit is good enuff for me. i go from 800-1000fps and i use unique and tite group. i plan to start using 2400. i don't know if that helps or not.

i thought that would lead when i shot the 250gr hp(40:1) but it didn't. i thought it would lead for the .432" ranch dog, but it didn't. i'd try mr gibson's 2%tin with coww and see how that works.

[Bazoo]

Thank you for the replies.

I got froggy last night and opened my lee sizing die up to .431.

I've used this lube for 38 special and 45 auto without any problems. I havent however, shot exclusively 44 specials to see if with .429 sized bullets, the lube is sufficient. I suspect that since my bore was .430, it would be a waste of effort to load any more sized to .429, although im tempted to try what I have left for 44 special loads.

I do have a stick of LsS carnauba red But I aint ever used it as I dont have a lube sizer.

Thanks again for the advice everyone.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the help and encouragement everyone. And the advice.

I hand lubed 50 with my stick of carnauba red, and sized them 431. Loaded them under 9.2 unique from a lee dipper. Shot half a box with the wife the other day. Just plinking, but I shot one group on paper and it was respectable enough for quick and offhand. Just looking down the bore with a flashlight, fouling is present, but leading seems to be either gone or almost gone.

Since my bore sized 430, I'll probably find a 430 die for my new to me lubesizer to start.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I feel I should add my .02 to this discussion.

I have converted shooting nothing but Powder Coated Cast Boolits.

I no longer wonder about my Lube. The PC is polymer based. There is no leading,,, Period.

Boolits dropped from moulds that are normally considered undersized get .001-2 per side added to them and thus can be sized to any appropriate dimension. My Mihec .429421 mould drops at .434 with plain WW. They still size perfectly when pushed thru a .431 die with no PC removal.

I have always (since I figured out what worked) sized to .431 for my SBH Bisley as the throats are .4300-.4305 and the barrel is .429. So the throats theoretically size the boolit .0005-.001 and the barrel sizes the boolit another .001 but since the boolit is coated with a polymer paint it slips thru with no problems.

Cleaning the barrel is one patch to clean out the powder fouling from the last shot, and a Small Brush to clean the forcing cone.

This also works for my S&W 696 and BH Bisley which are essentially the same dimensions for the throats and barrels.

The powder coating has removed a bunch of variables for me, and it is not that hard to do. Leading barrels is a thing of the past.

Randy

[Bazoo]

W.R., I aint been able to warm up to powder coating yet. It might happen one day, but it aint happening right now. Thank you though for sharing that, and I will keep it in mind.