My slug line up for testing

[longbow]

Well, I haven't been shooting anything for far too long and especially the shotgun slugs. I have been reasonably busy working on moulds and casting up several different designs for testing and re-testing. The line up is below:


Yikes! that came out smaller than anticipated. Well, you can see the slugs if you click on the pic.

From left to right:

12 ga. Bore Size Slugs

- 0.678" round ball with screw in the bottom sitting on a piece of copper pipe flared to bore diameter: I made a punch and die to flare the 1/2" copper pipe to fit the bore of my smoothbore. The ball has a screw in the bottom, pipe placed on ball and aligned then filled with hot melt glue. Last test with these I got sticky extraction so only shot a couple, not sure why but my suspicion is the ball set back and flared the pipe more. They do look nice though. I will use lighter loads this test to give them another try.
- A Nessler ball clone (one upright and one on its side to show skirt and central "tit"): I used some old Crimean war era graphics and digitized then produced a 3D model, cut drawing and made a mould. It casts 0.729" which is a bit undersize for my bore and accuracy was poor. I knurled this time so they will be a snug fit to bore. While very short and stubby the Nessler ball was considered far more accurate than round ball and it weighs the same as a bore size 12 ga. ball.
- A smooth and scaled down version of turbo1889's 10 ga. slug (one upright and one on its side to show hollow cavity and thick skirt): I used the drawing turbo posted of his 10 ga. slug to produce a 3D model then scaled to 12 ga. This will be slightly heavier for scaled size as there are no lube grooves. I also added a small shoulder to open roll crimp but otherwise it is turbo's design.
- a knurled version of the above: again, the mould casts to 0.729" but slightly small for my bore so I knurled to get snug fit. I'll try both smooth and knurled for comparison.
- Missing is the same slug as the bore diameter turbo copy but it is ribbed like a Brenneke (though straight ribbed not helical). Not sure how I forgot it in the family photo but so I did. Due to ribs it is somewhat lighter. The goal of the ribs is to make it choke friendly.

12 ga. Wad Slugs

- 0.678" round ball on copper tube flared to 0.678" at the bottom and again screw in the ball and hot melt glue fill like the full bore version
- a 0.678" TC slug with spigot fit into copper pipe again flared to 0.678" at the bottom as above, screw and hot melt glue. Also missing from the bore size slugs is the same slug with bore size nose. It'll sit in a wad kinda Hammerhead style but lose the wad when shot.
- a 0.670" TC smooth slug (one upright and one on its side to show cavity and skirt): Slugs will be paper patched to proper fit. Some wads are okay and some a bit loose. With Winchester yellow wads two wraps of printer paper makes a nice slide fit and 3 wraps makes it a very snug slide fit. I'll try both.
- same mould as above but different nose form with a slight ring around it at 0.678". Again, the plan is to paper patch to fit snug in the bore.
- 0.678" Rb with screw in the bottom and hot melt glue skirt: These are set into a form with screw up and filled with hot melt glue (my attempt at an AQ clone). Once the glue has cooled and hardened they are pressed out of the form. Sometimes these work very well and sometimes not. It is hard to get really consistent clean edges on the base.
- 0.670" TC slug with hot melt glue skirt: Same procedure as above. These will be paper patched to fit with shotcups used.

All hollow base slugs will be filled with hot melt glue as so far I have had poor results with unfilled slugs. Virtually every hollow base design I have tried has shown signs of skirt collapse or distortion in recovered slugs. Oven heat treating and/or filling solves that issue. Filling is good because it also keep wads from jamming into the hollow cavity.

The idea of the undersize slugs is to allow paper patching to suit the fit required with whatever wads get used. Not only do the wad petals vary in thickness between brands and types but the bores of smoothbore shotguns vary some too. Paper patching makes for custom fit.

So, while I have been away from slug shooting for a while, I haven't been too far away from slugs! Now to load 10 of each and go get some accumulated recoil brain damage! It'll be another couple of weeks before I get out to shoot but I'll get there.

Range report to follow.

Longbow

[jmort]

Looking forward to the report. Quite the line up you have in the queue.

[toallmy]

Ouch , that's going to hurt . I'm rubbing my shoulder just thinking about it .

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longbow,

That's an impressive line-up! It will be interesting to see the results. Some of those designs simply MUST work! - if not, I see no other option but to sacrifice a chicken to the God of Slugs...

[longbow]

I'll say that if I can reproduce past results then yes some of the designs work pretty well. Mostly the hollow base TC designs. I have a mould I used before that casts at 0.654" to suit steel shot wads for rifled gun. That one was a prototype slug for Greg Sappington. He found that wads were not consistent enough to provide the accuracy he was looking for so abandoned it. That was a base pour HP TC design (I still have a few). I turned the mould around to make a TC solid nose, nose pour design with fairly thick skirt then patched it to fit regular shotcups. That slug failed initial tests due to skirt distortion which I found out after recovering slugs after the snow melted. I oven heat treated and then they turned in the best accuracy I have had from HB slugs of any kind to 50 yards giving 3" +/- a bit groups. I did not test to 100 yards as I didn't like having to heat treat. Probably a bad decision.

The new 0.670" TC is the same basic design so should work the same with more conventional paper patching to custom fit as required. We'll see!

The full bore TC design of turbo's is also a proven design though my version is smooth and has a slight shoulder. Balance point is tight and it has a very thick skirt so should be sturdy. Again, testing will tell.

The ribbed version has slightly less meat in the skirt and slight more nose forward balance point. Filled with glue it should be good.

I have also had some very good results from the glue skirted ball and TC slugs in the past but getting that glue skirt "perfect" each time is not easy.

One that surprised me was my early attempt at using 1/2" copper pipe for a skirt several years ago. I only had a 0.662" ball mould then so used that, drilled for short wood screw, set pipe on, filled with glue, inverted and set onto a steel plate so glue face was flat and even. The idea being that the copper pipe has clean sharp edges, especially the trailing edge. Those were cloth patched into wads and shot amazingly well. They are a bit tedious to make though and for some reason were very hard on wads... but they shot well.

And yes... OUCH I am sure the accumulated recoil will leave me punchy (again). The plan is to shoot 5 at 50 yards and if they do well then go to 100 yards to see if accuracy holds up. So no less than 10 of each.

Also, this will all be smoothbore testing. I'm betting the Nessler ball clone does not do well from smoothbore but it should be interesting from rifled gun. turbo's design should also do well from a rifled gun so down the road I may see what I can do there.

Now to find time to load and shoot! I should have time by early April.

Longbow

[prs]

Captain Morgan said my first thought in his first sentence. WOW! I have recently been shooting slugs in my old 870 grouse gun, smooth bore imp cyl. It is the first gun I purchased for myself at age 16 and that was quite a spell ago. The only mould I have is the one for Lee's 7/8oz drive key. In fact I shot the first 20 of those today. I was quite impressed to have a 5 shot group at just under 3" at 50 yards using a hickory tree as my steady rest. I have also been shooting Winchesters 1oz Fosters and BP's Thug Slugs and the Hammer Head sabos. They all seem to shoot remarkably well through smooth bore, with the Winchester store bought probably the best so far; but today's shoot may equal them. Hickok45's slugfest videos got me hooked on this. I would have never believed smooth bore slugs could shoot so well. I am unfamiliar with filling hollow bases on slugs.

prs

[longbow]

While the Lee 7/8 oz. slug is one I have not tried (plan to) I have read numerous positive posts on accuracy... better than the 1 oz. slug for which I have a mould. I found the 1 oz. Lee didn't shoot as well and my slugs from home made moulds.

I'll agree on the Winchester Fosters as they shot well for me as did Remington and Federal Fosters. All shot much better than most of my home cast and loaded slugs. I believe wad column is a significant player in Foster slug accuracy and the factories can tailor what they need where we home loaders have to make do with what is readily available.

Filling hollow bases both helps support soft/thin skirts and keeps wads from getting jammed in the hollow base. The Lee Drive Key does a pretty good job of keeping wads out of the hollow base so filling is not required there.

I plan on ordering some Thug slugs to try as well.

Yeah, shooting slugs is kind of addictive! Not sure why but it is. My favourites are still round balls.

Longbow

[zymguy]

whats your round ball load Longbow ?

[bikerbeans]

LB,

If you plan on one range trip to shoot groups with that lineup I would suggest you get a script for Tylenol #3 first. Winters must be long and cold in western Canada, you have been very busy. Nice work, hope you have a couple of winners in the group.

A little off topic but I did a little research into why turbo's HB slugs don't collapse with very hot loads. It is the heat treating that did the trick. I duplicated his alloy and towel dropped HB slugs and they will collapse very easily with a stiff load. Now the 64 dollar question, did he post his heat treating recipe?

BB

[longbow]

BB:

Yeah that is what I found with my own slugs basically regardless of skirt thickness... they collapse or bell if not heat treated. I plan on retesting some designs with filled hollow base just to be sure I didn't miss anything. I do recall my 525 gr. TC slugs shooting horribly as cast but when I found them in the spring after snow melt I knew why... distorted skirts. In that case they were all belled. Not quite sure why the base would flare out but so it did. Possibly the shotcup was swelling up into the unfilled cavity so pushing outward on the skirt (thick skirt too). Heat treating produce some very good groups that competed with my round ball loads to 50 yards but I didn't test beyond at the time. That slug is one of very few that shot as well as factory rounds from my gun. I'll cast some more of those too. Why didn't I stick with that one you ask... I have no good answer except I didn't want to have to heat treat.

On the heat treating subject, I use a tray or stainless steel collander, put a bunch of slugs/boolits in. Into the oven at just under 475 degrees F (I should double check that one) and I use a separate oven thermometer as typical oven thermometers are not terribly accurate. About 1/2 hour in the oven then dumped into cold water. I normally use range scrap for slugs but it hardens up well. The goal is to get the slugs/boolits just below slump temperature, soak them for a bit then quench.

Here's a link to Rick Kelter's heat treating instructions:

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm#chart

Test out your oven and alloy with one or two slugs before putting a bunch in. If they slump they won't do you any good.

Yes, recoil induced trauma and brain damage... been there, done that!

I plan to load moderately for the first go around then those slugs that show promise will get retested with stouter loads. I'll wear a padded jacked for sure and may invest in a new thicker recoil pad. Even at that I doubt I'll get through 50 rounds without getting twitchy and shell shocked! It'll take a couple or three trips to test all these guys.

I'll keep you posted.

Longbow

[uncle dino]

Lead sled or sand bags are worth their weight in gold ..makes extended range sessions much more pleasurable. D

[longbow]

uncle d... i'm just not that smart... maybe the recoil got to me!

Good idea though. I should make something up because the goal is to test the accuracy of the load and slug not the flinching idiot pulling the trigger.

Last time I shot a bunch of slugs for testing was after I shot about 50 hot loads through my .44 mag. Marlin then I shot 35 hefty 0.735" RB loads through both my light single shot and a fairly light Remintgon 870 rifled gun with synthetic stock and very hard "recoil pad" that. I was pretty punchy after that. That little Marlin has a surprising kick with hot loads.

[Hogtamer]

LB, I was surprised at the effect of filling the cavity of the hollow back lyman 525 with hot glue. The soft wad cup bases were unmarked. I believe it would be effective in your full bore slugs on a solid column too. Cheap and easy. Overfill and trim flush. Much preferred to risking wife's wrath upon discovering your lead slugs in her oven!

[bikerbeans]

A yard sale toaster oven used in the barn should keep momma happy. I am going to use a 4-20ma thermocouple and a PID with SS relay to control temperature. Should also make nice toasted cinnamon raisin bagels.

BB

[longbow]

Believe it or not she really doesn't get worked up if I heat treat in the oven. Not the most hygenic practice I suspect but the heat isn't enough to cause any sort of lead vapour and the slugs/boolits are clean. Having said that I have not heat treated many slugs or boolits. if it becomes a regular practice BB has the answer... a yard sale toaster oven.

I can't stress enough to get a decent oven thermometer too. You want that lead almost soft before it is quenched. Typical ovens will fluctuate in temperature as the element goes on and off so the max. temperature of the cycle is what you want to find to set the oven so you don't wind up with a puddle of slugs when you heat treat.

I will likely heat treat a few of the TC slugs and fill as well then also shoot some that are air cooled and filled to see if there is a difference in accuracy. I'll try to set up and recover some slugs too. Snows about gone now so no help there. Deep snow is the best catcher I've used but I'm glad to see it gone this year. We had lots of snow and long cold winter. Yeah, yeah I know the prairie and northern boys will be saying "Wuss!" I lived in Kemano and Yellowknife too so I know cold snowy winters. I moved back to paradise for a reason.

I won't be shooting this weekend but maybe next weekend. I'm hoping anyway.

Longbow

[Blood Trail]

LB, outstanding work, brother! I'm drooling over here! Hurry and report the results!


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[longbow]

Unfortunately I may be a while yet. Life has gotten in the way once more. My 93 year old mother was just admitted to a palliative care unit this morning so I will be driving 8 hours each way on weekends for the next little while. Family first!

In all honesty I should have done some of this slug testing long ago but have been distracted by other things and have not completed several shotgun related projects... like my rifled choke tube I just dug out again too.

I will get back to this as soon as I can but am having a bit of trouble focusing right now. Lots on my mind.

[Blood Trail]

LB, sorry about your mother. I wish I had one more day with mine. She went to be with the Lord back in 2011 at the age of 58.

You only have one mom. Spend as much with her while she's here. It was two years since I seen my mother before death.

When life gets in the way, funny how things that were important to us (like reloading) just seems so insignificant.


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[prs]

Best wishes for your mom's comfort.

Heat treating tells me you are probably using an alloy with lead, tin, antimony and some arsenic; or range scrap. I have been using fairly pure lead and also tried some of my pistol alloy (about 96/2/2). The lead casting needed pretty high heat (800F) to produce consistent slugs, the alloy was far easier and at lower temps, I like about 715F, all in the Lee 7/8 mould.

I have been placing a 20ga hard board wafer in the shotcup under the Lee key drives to make sure there is not penetration of wadding. I picked-up a Lyman Foster the other day. I am going to try to get it to work, but it is way under bore diameter and I have no idea of knurling. Might have to get a lube sizer die and ball punch to "bump" them up. Need some rainy days to cast.

prs

[longbow]

Thanks for your comments about my Mom. She passed away on April 10th. I miss her but she is not in pain any more. We had a good visit before she passed and got her out shopping a bit and out for lunch then out to a play my son wrote (he's a masters of fine arts student at university). She had a good day and good evening.

Things are slowly returning to normal now.

I do hope to get back to the slugs shortly and have plans to get them loaded up in the next couple of weeks. I have a big annual archery shoot coming up on May 20th, 21st, 22nd so am trying to get practiced up for that. I haven't shot my bow since last November so will be rusty to say the least. My wife and I went out to the range to practice last weekend but it was shut down all weekend for a rifle shoot. Normally when the gun range is booked the archery range is open but not last weekend! That and I thought I might get out with the guns on Sunday too.

Not so last weekend.

Planning to practice this weekend but we have torrential rain today. It was supposed to be cloudy with showers! I think if you looked up with your mouth open you'd drown out there. Hopefully it lightens up later. I shoot a home made yew bow by the way. This is our provincial traditional shoot in May. Great shoot and great bunch of people.

I've got the slugs all lined up for loading so maybe while it is raining i'll get going on that then i'll be ready for first opportunity to shoot.

I also plan on buying some factory rounds and doing the round ball/slug for shot replacement to see how I do with that. I've got the Lee 12 ga. Drive Key slug and some home wad slugs from home made moulds as well as the 0.678" round ball mould so a variety of things to test.

Not sure what I'll use for powder with the heavier slugs as I am running low on Blue Dot which I really like but seemingly not available here now. I do have some SR4756 but so far I like Blue Dot better. I've got lots of Unique but like slower powders for slugs. We'll see. I'll check to see if the powder supply situation is any better but it is always pretty limited here.

Once I get myself organized and time to shoot I will post range results.

prs:

Good luck with that Lyman Foster. I started out with one of those back in 1987 and it was (and is) a total failure for me. I loaded exactly as the Lyman manual stated and got poor results. Mine casts at 0.705" so way under bore diameter. They do slug up if cast from soft lead but I found that slugs recovered from soft snow all had uneven skirts and/or noses from uneven obturation ~ likely cocking during the jump to the forcing cone.

Nothing I have tried except paper patching with heavy paper has helped. The paper patching to bore diameter sort of worked and accuracy improved dramatically but I got frequent fliers that I didn't solve. Possibly mylar wrap or Teflon wrap would work better. My feeling was that the paper suffered from opening the crimp and maybe tore sometimes. Speculation on my part.

I was told by one former member here that the way to get accuracy from the Lyman Foster was to cast from pure or very soft lead and use a copper washer under the slug so ensure it was well supported and slugged up. I tried that and no go for me.

Slugger Doug wrote an article on his method which was to "knurl" the slug up to bore diameter using a helical gear "knurler" he made.

Basically if you can get the slug up to bore diameter it should shoot okay except that it is thin and soft so doesn't penetrate well. Better to have a snug fitting wad slug or slug that is full bore diameter. I think turbo1889 had one of the best Foster slug designs I have seen. I copied it (more or less) for my push out moulds so that one is on the menu this time too.

The Lee 12 ga. Drive Key slug slug okay for me but not as good as slugs form my home made moulds and not as good at 50 yards as round ball. It is hard to beat round balls to 50 yards or so.

Anyway, i'll get back at it shortly.

Longbow