Surprising reacton on Christian forum

[JimB..]

'Claiming to be a Christian is no guarantee of an open mind.'

I totally agree ! Thank you .

Or, based on the quotes, of even a modicum of tolerance.

[JSnover]

It really surprised me and made me question my faith. How can so many people profess to follow the same God and yet have so much hate and disagreement with their brother??

No need to question your faith. Question theirs, or at least question their judgement.

[GhostHawk]

Well I have to admit a lot of my faith is tied into my conservative roots.
I never saw my dad carry a gun. But he was the only sparring partner who could stay in the ring with his friend who happened to win the Golden Gloves that year.

I don't think there was a half a dozen times in his life that Dad felt like he could not handle whatever had to be handled without a gun. He was a peace loving man who hated fights. He had 5 brothers constantly arguing and wanting him to take their side.
So instead of asking for his dad to give him land like his brothers all did he bought his. And he bought it 8 miles away. So he could have some peace and quiet.

I have in my 64 years never seen him hit someone in anger. He came close once.
He came home from the farm around 7 in the evening. I was 6, my older brother bob was 8. Mom was on the couch crying buckets. We were hiding.

Whats wrong he thundered. "The k ki kids sssss sasssed me. Wouldn't listen"

Thunder rolled. Boys, you better be here saying sorry to your mom when I get back.

He disappeared into the basement. Terrible sounds came drifting up. Sawing, first the power saw, then the hand saw. Then the plane shaping and smothing.

He came up the stairs calm, cool, collected. He knew exactly what he was doing.
In his hand was a 18' chunk of rough cut cottonwood inch and a half thick. One end carved down to fit ma's smaller hands.

Dad whispered "what did you do?" We sass'd mom, backtalked, did not obey, ran off.
Are you going to do it again? No sir, no sir, never.

Turn around, grab your ankles. He gave me 6 fair taps, and my brother 8. Who promptly questioned it. You are older, you are supposed to know better, you are supposed to be a good example.

Then he turned to mom. The day you break this over one of my sons backsides. Is the day I take you 40 miles to town and buy you a whole brand new outfit. Then he added for emphasis. With SHOES!

Then he turned back to us. And if you get big enough, and she can't do it, I will.

Mom never had to use it. If she grabbed it and shook it we were done. She still has it.

Dad used it a couple of times.

When it was all done, he sat down in his chair, called me to him, lifted me into his lap. And we talked. About why what we had done was wrong. About how it was dangerous for all of us. And about how someday we too might have a child that needs to be spanked. I think it was the hardest thing he ever did. To get control of the anger, to do what needed doing.

I don't concealed carry a gun. I do have a 3.5 inch knife that I carry every day.
I can get it into action in about 2 seconds. Assisted open.

If someone was being shot I like to think I would watch for a time when I could make a difference and use it.

I don't want to live by the sword. But I won't be held, tortured, or watch it happen to those I care about while I stand by and do nothing. If it gets bad enough I would concealed carry. And I am lucky, as of Aug 1st North Dakota citizens can concealed carry with only a valid drivers license. Nothing else needed. As it should be.

The only way to stop a bad man with a gun is for a good man to have a gun and use it. Police are not in the business of stopping crimes. The are in the business of punishing them. In most cases they can not get there fast enough to prevent anything.

I believe that God helps those who help themselves first.
That includes being prepared for things to go wrong.

I have no ill will in my heart towards anyone.
But I have been through hell, and I say never again. Not while I am alive and able to do something about it.

I don't think that makes me less Christian. I reckon I won't know for sure until I stand before my maker.

[sghart3578]

The subject of this thread is one of the reasons I have left the Catholic Church. I don't get along with the lefties and their thinking.

[fatelk]

'Claiming to be a Christian is no guarantee of an open mind.'

+1 to that. Or even a remotely good person for that matter. I have a brother-in-law who was a pastor, and I could tell stories...

On the other hand, rejecting Christianity because of some hypocrites is a small-minded cop-out. Christians are people just like anyone else; with all different levels of sincerity, understanding, and maturity. It's a little more wise to consider one's beliefs based on the best understanding and merits of the faith.

I've known Atheists and Muslims who were genuinely nicer people than some Christians I know, and who I would prefer as neighbors or friends, but I'm neither Atheist nor Muslim, because I reject those faiths based on an understanding of the faiths, not the people.

[johnson1942]

to even think politics and being a christian in the same breath is unacceptable. american christians are watered down, it makes no difference if your left or right, but is you mix it with being a real christian, it is making it worthless. when you go into Gods house its all about God and his Son and nothing else at all. our church is made up of left and right but no one ever talks about it in church. it will get in the way of your service to each other and your prayers for each other. if you carry a gun concealed in church and it is legal, dont tell anyone about it.i could careless if you do or dont or if your sitting next to me. just dont let anyone know as then you invite anyone to make a comment about it. and what is taking about guns doing on a christian talk site? that sure was a step down for that site or even this site. when christians get to gether it should be about the Father and his Son and building up the body of believers and nothing else or it is just wasted moment and not worth the time. you did nothing wrong except tell some about it. remember the internet is a open door meeting and anyone can attend. your not going to like alot of the people who come through that door. it sounds like to me that a lot of those to the right think no one from the left are going to heaven. well ive got news for you, its about if you have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and accepted Christ as you Savior, not if your left or right. lets cowboy up here and stop the political christain talk, one has nothing to do with the other. EVER.

[Char-Gar]

And folks say that Muslims are intolerant of people who hold religious views different from theirs.

[Bzcraig]

This really is an interesting thread. Much of what I'm going to say has already been mentioned in various posts. First, there are many, many liberal Christians, not only politically, but theologically, socially, fiscally, and idealistically, so it is no surprise you got those responses. Let's not forget that being a Christian simply means being a Christ follower, not meaning we all agree theologically​. As long as they are following the Jesus of the Bible (acknowledging his deity) then it really could become a pretty good theological debate. But them being buttheads is wrong on every level. However, the one passage of Scripture that cannot be debated regarding this is, at least in my mind, Romans 13. Beginning in verse 1 it explains the government is established by God, not debatable. If that is so and owning guns is legal (and Constitutional), including concealed carry, whether in church or out, it's a moot point! I will never attempt to debate with anyone whose idea of debating includes personal attacks.

[Hamish]

We have concealed carry in the state of Illinois because of the violent attack on a church secretary.

Pay at no attention to the badly mistaken. Pay close attention to the innate Creator given desire for self defence and the preservation of life and limb.

Sheep get no vote on what the sheepdog does.

[fatelk]

lets cowboy up here and stop the political christain talk, one has nothing to do with the other. EVER.

I get where you're coming from, I really do, and I don't mean to challenge it, but I had a recent discussion with a friend about the same subject. The pastor preached a sermon on politics after the election saying pretty much what you are, but he kind of took it a step farther to say that politics doesn't really matter, Democrat or Republican, that we pretty much need to get over it and forget about it, that both sides can be good, sincere Christians. He seemed to imply that both sides were equally right and wrong. He specifically said "Get real, Hillary's not going to take your guns." (Not to me personally, but from the pulpit)

I liked much of what he had to say, but wasn't convinced about the rest. I agree that church is no place for politics, and that all types can be sincere Christians. What I disagreed with was the statement that it doesn't matter. That really seems to diminish the hard work of those who have been fighting for this country politically. I totally agree that Democrats can be sincere Christians and good people, but given the fact that the current Democrat party is wholly owned by the radical left, and the radical left is openly hostile towards any sort of Bible believing Christianity, can a mature Bible-believing Christian really be an informed, loyal Democrat? I'm not going to judge anyone, but I have a hard time understanding how. Again, I agree that church is not the place to push politics for politics sake, but I disagree that it's not important. Sincere Christians can be Democrats or Republicans, radical environmentalists, hard left, hard right, or even Nazis for that matter. Sincere Christians can also be politically very wrong.

I have relatives who are good people. They are generous, attend church, identify as Christian, and are just nice people. They are also what is considered the "religious left". Thoroughly Marxist, Bernie supporters, voted socialist 30 years ago because the Democrats weren't liberal enough. They like certain "Christian ideals" such as love and giving and helping the poor, but reject much/most of the rest of the Bible, including some important foundational stuff. I'm pretty open to different views, and figure it's not my place to question someone's faith, but to be honest I do not consider them to be Christian, any more than the pastor in Portland who came out as an Atheist, who says he's Christian because he believes in the feel-good teachings of Christ, but doesn't believe in God. Again, I'm against pushing politics in church, but do we really have to water church down to the point where we avoid anything controversial except loving everyone and helping the poor?

I truly don't mean to be judgemental; I've just been mulling these kinds of things recently.

Added: on second thought, I'm thinking that my musings here might be more fitting in "politics & religion" and perhaps inappropriate here? If a moderator deems that to be the case, please delete this post. I don't want to cause dissension in the Chapel.

[sghart3578]

In my parrish I couldn't escape politics, as much as I wanted to. It was spewed from the pulpit from several priests who relished their community organizing roles and bragged constantly about being arrested in different protests.

My younger brother is a member of a Christian church in southern California and he tells me that it is much the same with him.

It took me years to make my wife see that the Democrat supporting Catholic church was indirectly supporting abortion by their political affiliations.

I don't need my priest telling me to give up my guns and take in Muslim refugees.

If you are cool with that then you can have my old seat at the pew.

My last statement on this and I am sorry if I offend my fellow Catholics or any of my KOC brothers. Wake up, the modern Catholic church is focused on getting us to be politically compliant with the left and all of their social engineering experiments.

I long for the day when a true Catholic leader emerges to take the up sword against deviants and usurpers. Who would defend Christians with force if necessary. That would be a leader that I could swear allegiance to.

[johnson1942]

apart of my christian life is prayer for the needs of another human being when the Holy Spirit it on my heart. if i put every one in a box i would most likely ending up praying for my wife and some of my children only. i do not care who they are or what they think in politics as that is worldly and God looks beyond that. if the Holy Spirit tell me to pray for some one i have to do it or the Holy Spirit will move on to someone else to do it. the ministers of to day or priests of to day should have one message and one message only, God and His Son. there are a 1000 ways to preach that message and all the rest of the rabbit hole stuff will take care of its self and need never ever to come up in church. our pastor also preached a post election message similar to the one mentioned. a couple of elders went to him in private and said do not ever do that again, this is Gods house and politics is not welcome here.about the gun thing. if it is legal and know one knows as it is CONCEALED and not open carry, never tell anybody about it. why would anyone tell anyone about it. i drive to town now and then because they have not much wind there when i walk a couple of miles. in my pocket is a very very small very well made 38. ive never ever told anyone but you all about it. some things are better left quiet. if your going to serve God and his Son, serve them, if your going to serve man, then serve him, its up to each person.

[EMC45]

In my parrish I couldn't escape politics, as much as I wanted to. It was spewed from the pulpit from several priests who relished their community organizing roles and bragged constantly about being arrested in different protests.

My younger brother is a member of a Christian church in southern California and he tells me that it is much the same with him.

It took me years to make my wife see that the Democrat supporting Catholic church was indirectly supporting abortion by their political affiliations.

I don't need my priest telling me to give up my guns and take in Muslim refugees.

If you are cool with that then you can have my old seat at the pew.

My last statement on this and I am sorry if I offend my fellow Catholics or any of my KOC brothers. Wake up, the modern Catholic church is focused on getting us to be politically compliant with the left and all of their social engineering experiments.

I long for the day when a true Catholic leader emerges to take the up sword against deviants and usurpers. Who would defend Christians with force if necessary. That would be a leader that I could swear allegiance to.


Well put. You have "priests" like "father" Pfleger and the Pope who I believe is on a socialist bent.

[Blackwater]

I too have noted the Catholic priests who make it into the media, but there are many more who are of a very different bent. ALL Catholics and priests are NOT liberal by ANY means, so let's not go throwing the baby out with the bathwater, lest we disparage some really great believers with genuine conservative values. I believe the word "catholic" means "composed of many sources." They're very ecclectic, except when it comes to official church policy. Much of their theology is amazingly clear and well supported. I find much wisdom in it. Some of the rest, I haven't made up my mind about, and am presently quite resistant to a bit of it, but the rest still has value, when properly read.

But that's also true of most other sects as well. Personally, I've heard some terribly liberal stuff come from Baptist preachers, and I've almost never dealt with or countered it. I have, on occasion, asked rather pointed and clearly relevant questions of the speaker, but there's nothing good going to come from arguing with a preacher, and maybe especially a Baptist one.

It's unfortunate that many believers assume so much is "Biblical" when it's really much more attitude and PC than it is Biblical. Lots of folks don't have the time to really study the Bible deeply and thoroughly, so .... how could they be expected to NOT come up with some extraneous "solutions" from time to time? I've come to just chuckle, and ask a few questions in as friendly a manner as I can, and sometimes, I get that "doe in the headlights" look with just a question, kind'a like being caught unzipped in church.

Arguing doesn't convert many people. All it CAN do is confront them with another set of facts and a view. But in today's world, the more people argue, the more dead set they become on their initial statement, even AFTER being confronted with the fact that it can't possibly be that way. Truly, we humans are a willful and prideful lot, and those factors SO often get in the way of our edification and obtaining some real wisdom. I know I'm still working on it, but it's a very slow process to gain real wisdom. We're all "works in progress," and I just hope we can all find what we're really looking for before we self-destruct. It's a good thing God takes better care of us than we often take of ourselves! And he DOES!

[cpileri]

Don't let satan win.
Satan puts up many obstacles to staying the course.

The subject of this thread is one of the reasons I have left the Catholic Church.

[cpileri]

I too have noted the Catholic priests who make it into the media, !

There has always been a bad problem with bad priests because there have always been bad human beings. For example, if you read 1 Samuel 2:22, you will find out that the two priests who were sons of Eli were publicly known for sleeping with the women who served at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. This was the ancient equivalent of sleeping with your church secretary.
Now if you had lived in Old Testament times and judged the religion of Israel by the performance of some of its priests, you would have missed out on the true religion. In the same way today, if you judge a Church by the performance of some of its priests or ministers, the same thing will happen: You will miss out on the true religion of God.


Jesus said that we are to judge a tree by its fruits, but that is a test for the quality of individual ministers, not the truth of religious systems.

[Char-Gar]

Politics of some sort is dissolved into Christianity like salt in the sea. Jesus was very critical of the Jewish leadership of his day, which was also the political leadership. Though Palestine was a Roman province, the Romans delegated the day to day operations to the Jewish Sanhedrin. The principal interest of the Romans was in collective taxes. The criticism by Jesus is what drove the Jewish leadership to have the Romans kill him on trumped up charges. There has never been a time when Christianity did not bump hard again the political establishment wherever it was.

Throughout history, Chritians have been for or against various governments. From the Pilgrims to Hitler's Germany, there has been both conflict and support. Why should we think it is any different today?

Christianity has much to say about how individual Christians and Christian groups relate to each other and to the world. These belief, diverse as they are work their ways into laws and attitudes toward a government and it's people. The Christian faith was a driving force in forming the thinking about how America was to be formed and the shape it took.

Bottom line is politics has always been and will always be intermingled with the Christian faith, whether we like it or not. Today we tend to seek out churches that nurture out beliefs about how we should live and function as a nation. Conversely we avoid those who don't. No reason to get spun up, just bear up or go elsewhere and find groups that are supportive of your point of view. Political diversity in the church is certainly no reason to rend your cloak and beat your breast.

[fatelk]

You said it far better than I could have, Char-Gar. I have seen both sides of politics and church. On one hand you have the political church, where one's politics seem to be more important than their faith. On the other hand is the church where anything that could be politically controversial is strictly taboo.

Our previous church before we moved was fairly conservative as far as the people in the congregation. The pastor was pretty conservative also, but not in a politically activist way. He's just an intelligent, principled family man with admirable integrity.

As he preached through the Bible he would occasionally touch on things that could be considered political, as you would expect. He's not the type to push politics for politics sake, just to honestly consider these issues as they relate to scripture, faith, and real life.

Any time he touched on something that sounded slightly political, he got visibly nervous, and extremely cautious with how he worded things. I thought that was odd considering the makeup of the congregation. I then heard from a reliable source that the head deacon (a government employee and a Democrat) had essentially threatened him, that he better stay away from any of that right-wing political stuff, or else.

The pastor wasn't the type to push politics, but he wasn't the type to be stifled either. They left shorty after we did.

The internal politics of church turn me off cold. I've seen and heard stuff in church business meetings that made me cringe, and realize that there really are a lot of hypocrites in the pews, and in leadership. That doesn't stop us from going, just makes us realize the church is made up of human beings, with all our human flaws, hypocrisy, and ugliness.

[Traffer]

This is only MY OPINION:
There are many Christians nowadays that see "traditional Christianity" as evil "legalism". They believe in a progressive Christianity. I had been in a church like that for several years. To me they are very poorly informed non-Biblical "do gooders". It is really not a church but more like a social group where people do charity work...only. They accuse others of judging them but judge others according to what they do or do not do as volunteers for community projects. It is easy to determine who they are. The people who want to form groups to challenge "climate change". The people who are silent when it comes to condemning abortion. The people who walk out when a hard sermon is preached. Yes there are many whole "churches" like this. It is one of the reasons that I have tried to get people to take a serious look at Gorsuch. His congregation and denomination is much like that. (I did a half hour research on Google to find out.) Most folks here live in the South. If you were to go to random "churches" in north, east or west coast, you might have a rude awakening. Broad is the road that leads to destruction. There is a lot of "broad road" pseudo-Christianity out there folks. Where supposed Christians are pro-womens right to choose abortion, pro-homosexuality, pro-women pastors, anti-gun, anti-american, etc.
Sorry but my heart grieves over the Church and sometimes I express that. With this in mind, there is also an element in the church that is on the other extreme. The individuals are probably more offensive. Those who really are racists, and haters of their fellow man. Individuals who are always ready to escalate a conversation to incite hatred and ill will toward others. Those who are filled with glee over conflicts they see and read about.
My most recurrent prayer is for the Church. (I mean all of those who are in Christ) would return to God with all of their hearts, we would turn this world upside down in a hurry. I believe that if even a substantial number of God's people would get radical about being yoked with Christ, God might grant us another great revival. We need a revival.

[Blackwater]

Char-Gar is right on target, and Traffer makes some really salient points. Politics and our Faith ARE interrelated, but one doesn't have to control the other, though many seem to make that mistake. And today, PC has become so much of a "virtual religion" in so many, that many believers have fallen prey to it just because it "sounds good" at first hearing. PC, though, was developed and spread by libs, SPECIFICALLY to allow they to spew their confusion and error in otherwise good discussions and arguments about some of the important aspects of our daily lives, our attitudes, and our behavior. It ALSO sought to stifle the expression of traditional values and conservative thought. It was, since the outset, a contrivance to allow libs to get the upper hand. But that part of it flew right over most folks' heads.

I really feel for preachers, who pretty much all must deal with these things, and their effect on their congregations. It's virtually a no-win situation. My own preacher tries hard to avoid politics, and when and IF he says anything abou it, he's got to be pretty sure no one will take offense at what he DOES say. Get him one-on-one, though, and he'll unload, and his assessments are spot on and he can back them up with good scriptures and analogies from the Bible. Preachers today have to walk a fine line, and it's probably a highly developed art form for them to walk it effectively. People almost seem to HUNT for things to be insulted or offended about!

The quote that comes to mind when I hear PC masquerading as "Christianity," is "There but for the grace of God go I." I've led a very varied and complex life that's allowed me to see many things that most will never see in their time here. I may not be that bright, but I DO try to pay attention, and think about the things I see, and what they mean, and how they came to be as they are. As an old Judge of mine used to be fond of saying, "Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then if he just keeps rooting." There's a lot of Truth in that, and perhaps my greatest asset in life has been the simple fact that I've never stopped searching and learning and observing, so I can learn yet more. I've still got an awful long way to go before I get to where I'd really like to be, but ..... what else do I have to do in this world, BUT that???

People who can't separate their politics out from their Faith need our prayers, just as Johnson said. Personally, I feel a real NEED to be involved in politics, since it controls so much of our lives, but my Faith is my NECESSITY. Nothing else takes precedence over my Faith. It can't. Faith is the cornerstone on which we build our lives. Lacking Faith, one is much like an anchorless ship, drifting wherever the tides and winds drive it to. Having a simple anchor in life CAN and often DOES keep us from much harm and sorrow. I think that anchor slips when one of our group gets strung out on political matters, kind'a like the tail wagging the dog. Just MHO, of course, but I think we all know and understand that not all who claim "religion" are truly Christian. Christ himself said, "Many will come in my name and say yea, yea, but they do not know me." I'll leave the judging to Him, but a certain amount of assessment is necessary for us to evaluate what to do and who to believe, perhaps now more than ever.