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Thread: BPCR alloy

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy MaLar's Avatar
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    BPCR alloy

    OK I have a question for you guys and gals. I used to shoot BPCRS a long time ago.
    I'm going to get started again in the spring. Jezzz how things have changed.
    I was shocked at the price of tin when I went shopping. I used to buy solder 95/5 for $9 a pound.
    It's hard to find around here for under $35 now. I can buy it online for $10+ a pound plus shipping.

    OK now the question, I have about 650 lbs of lead and 1200 lbs of lino and mono I bought years ago for .25 a pound. Can I make a usable alloy from this? If so what mix? I do have some tin but not much.
    I know you can use pewter for tin but around here they think it's gold.
    Those who choose violence as a first option are typically confronted by somebody else using violence as a last resort.

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    From the free state of Idaho

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I use a 20-1 lead tin alloy for my grease grooved and paper patched bullets that is working real well for me. Some are goping to a small amount of antimony also now. I havent tried it yet. My bullets are probably around 10 bhn. Ive never tested for hardness but did try diffrent alloies and let my rifles tell me what they wanted. Early on I tried some Laser cast 500grn hard cast and got disapointing accuracy with the hard 18-20 bhn bullets. I believe they werent bumping up to seal the bore with Black Powder. The softer alloys work better for me and my rifles. You might try 20 lbs pure lead with 1 lb lino and go from there. I dont smelt and blend my own alloy anymore I just order the desired alloy and run with it.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    20:1 and 16:1 are very popular alloys.

    Some are using alloys with a small amount of antimony in them. If you do some digging through past posts you'll find the information that you need.

    Chris.

  4. #4
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    You need to consider the bullet design - maybe. For the older blunt nosed bullets almost any alloy in the 9 -12 BHN range will work.
    For the longer nosed Money type a stronger alloy will keep the unsupported nose from slumping out of balance.
    Chill Wills

  5. #5
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    A good sample alloy (using what you have) for the Money bullets cast in a 20 lb trial pot is the following mix.

    3 lbs Lino
    15 lbs plain lead
    to this add only 1 oz tin

    the additional tin will bring the tin total in the pot to about 1%. This is important - do not use more.

    This ratio is quick and dirty and will make an alloy of about
    97 Pb
    2 Sb
    1 Sn

    It will have a hardness of about 12-13 and be time stable. This will support any BPCR Nose.

    You can get out the calculator and scale but this will be close enough.
    Chill Wills

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Last time I checked John Walters was selling tin for $15/lb. I have enough to probably last the duration of the BPCR game, or next year, whichever comes first

    Anyway, you might check with him if you want to do a straight lead-tin alloy, which, as Chill Will says, generally runs 16 or 20:1, I prefer the former. Compared to all the other stuff that goes into the game, I don't find the tin price to be too terribly onerous.

    Chill Will is probably the master at making wheel weights and antimony lead work. You couldn't be in better hands there.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy MaLar's Avatar
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    Firstly Thanks for your replies. I guess I could have give a little more info.
    I'm shooting a roller in 40-65, Douglas 34" 16" twist barrel. Boolits are a copy of the Lyman Postell and the Lyman pointy one 410660.
    I also used the RCBS 40-300 SP CSA 300 grn mold on chickens.
    I was using 20-1 when I was last shooting this game.
    Those who choose violence as a first option are typically confronted by somebody else using violence as a last resort.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaLar View Post
    Firstly Thanks for your replies. I guess I could have give a little more info.
    I'm shooting a roller in 40-65, Douglas 34" 16" twist barrel. Boolits are a copy of the Lyman Postell and the Lyman pointy one 410660.
    I also used the RCBS 40-300 SP CSA 300 grn mold on chickens.
    I was using 20-1 when I was last shooting this game.
    1:20 sounds good, greasers? if so, maybe 1:30 is worth testing.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I shoot two different bullet designs out of a Shiloh 1:16 twist .40-65. A non-pointy Saeco #740 which works well with 20:1, and a pointy "money" bullet which is more consistently accurate with 16:1. I have yet to try Chill Will's alloy for the money bullet but I have no doubt that it would work very well.

    Chris.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    When you add antimony to your mix you can cut down on the tin.
    Example, 1/16 tin/lead say for a PP money bullet type ogive is pretty much normal what most use and it holds the nose setback to around .027" using black powder in a .45-90 from what I have measured and it will fill the grooves for good rotation.
    19 pounds of pure lead and one roll of 95/5 no lead solder that is 95% tin 5% antimony will hold the nose setback the same as 1/16 T/L with the same load. Just that small amount of antimony makes this much difference.
    1/19 tin/lead the nose setback will be around .067" average and that is enough for the nose to get setback enough that the lands will engrave on the bare lead ahead of the patch.
    1/25 T/L with the money nose it will look like a postell when shot with black powder.
    Here is a very good link to get alloy composition information from that very few use. http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...Metallurgy.htm

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Words from Dan Theodore ...
    My favorite antimonial alloy is the 97.0 / 1.5 / 1.5, which has a BH of 9.8 and took 18 hours to completely age-harden. It has remained at that hardness for over one year

    lead/tin/antimony all by weight
    97.0 / 1.5 / 1.5 : 7 parts lead + 3 parts Lyman # 2

    Q: How do you make #2 Alloy?
    A: To make 10 pounds of #2 Alloy, use either of the following recipes: 9 pounds of wheelweights + 1 pound of 50/50 (lead/tin) bar solder or 4 pounds of Linotype +1 pound of 50/50 bar solder + 5 pounds pure lead
    Regards
    John

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Mr. Pope also wrote about that mix also quite often. It is almost like the old Lyman #1 alloy.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    And what is currently forgotten, is in history Dr Hudson shot many famous groups using 1:14 using the 319293 and 375292 Ideal bullets - breech seated
    Regards
    John

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Boy View Post
    Q: How do you make #2 Alloy?
    A: To make 10 pounds of #2 Alloy, use either of the following recipes: 9 pounds of wheelweights + 1 pound of 50/50 (lead/tin) bar solder or 4 pounds of Linotype +1 pound of 50/50 bar solder + 5 pounds pure lead
    I'm not sure anyone can turn 3% Sb into 5% Sb by diluting it.
    I think this notion comes from an almost century old (almost) Lyman text. Wheel weights may have been different then.

    Chill Wills

  15. #15
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    For those that need to view the calculations, the images below are from the Precision Cast Bullet Alloy Calculator.

    The first three images display the number of ounces of each individual alloy component to make 18 pounds of Dan Theodore's recommended 97 - 1.5 - 1.5 alloy.

    The purpose of Lyman #2 can loosely be interpreted as containing equal amounts of Tin and Antimony in the alloy.

    Wheel weights and 50-50 solder won't quite make the cut to achieve the 90 - 5 - 5 ration of Lyman # 2. The closest we can come with equal weights of Tin and Antimony is adding 19 ounces of Tin to 269 ounces of wheel weights to obtain a 92.5 - 3.74 -3.74 alloy.

    Adding pure tin to the wheel weights is not quite as good. Although the Antimony level in the wheel weights is not high enough to bring the ratio up to equal the Lyman #2. About the best that can be done with wheel weights and Tin is to add 10 ounces of tin to 278 ounces of old wheel weights to achieve 18 pounds of a 92.27 - 3.86 - 3.86 alloy.

    The last image displays the ratios to make 18 pounds of Lyman #2 Alloy from Linotype, Tin and Lead.
    Add 10 ounces of Tin and 147 ounces of pure Lead to 131 ounces of Linotype. Resulting in the true 90 - 5 - 5 alloy.

    Hope this helps.

    BPCR alloy from Lyman #2




    BPCR alloy With New Wheelweights



    BPCR Alloy With Old Wheelweights



    Lyman # 2 with Wheel-weights and 50-50 Bar Solder




    Lyman # 2 from Wheelweights and Tin.



    True Lyman #2 with Linotype, Lead and Tin

    Last edited by Tom Myers; 12-09-2016 at 12:51 AM.
    Respectfully,
    Tom Myers
    Precision Shooting Software


  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Tom,
    Tha'ts a pretty handy calculator you have there. I made one for just lead-tin alloy, but nothing half as involved as this. Good info!

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    Tom,
    Tha'ts a pretty handy calculator you have there. I made one for just lead-tin alloy, but nothing half as involved as this. Good info!
    Thanks Brent.

    It does get rid of the guesswork and also eliminated the math mistakes that I was continually making. Best of all though, the panels can be printed out so's I don't forget when I go to the casting room
    Respectfully,
    Tom Myers
    Precision Shooting Software


  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    From BrentD “Chill Will is probably the master at making wheel weights and antimony lead work. You couldn't be in better hands there. ”

    Good to know Brent! I try to always put authoritative gauge on who I’m reading before I store the info. Can’t remember where but somewhere I stored in my brain that it is important to have equal amounts of tin and antimony. But I admit the alloy business has always given my pea-brain fits. This and the Money Bullet thread over on BPCR has been good for me to read but I still have questions based on that nugget I stored away some time back.

    My background: I have shot smokeless for the last several years. I only started casting in 2010 but I’m retired and dive in pretty deep so casting for about 13 rifles. But this year shot my first BPCR and so now my interests have changed (not leaving my vintage levers behind but Single Shots and BPCR has got nearly all my attention now).

    The problem is that I have way more wheel weights than money - so looking for a way to get about 600lbs of WW, taken from a 1960 vintage crane where it served as ballast, into the mix. I’m shooting a variety of bullets so far, but mostly trying to feed two 40-65s, a 38-50 and a 35-40 for Black Powder loading. The molds I have are a Paul Jones with a fairly blunt ogive for the 40-65 (would like to add the BACO M409400 and maybe the Saeco 740) , a Steve Brooks for my 38-50RH and another Steve Brooks I had modified from the Sage Chicken Money Bullet to fit my rifle’s dimensions. Here is a picture of nose profiles I currently have; you already know the profiles for the BACO and the Saeco.

    40-65 and 38-50RH
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	40-65 Paul Jones and 38-50 Steve Brooks.jpg 
Views:	33 
Size:	62.5 KB 
ID:	182716

    35-40
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	35-40 Modified Sage Chicken Bullet (2).jpg 
Views:	30 
Size:	105.3 KB 
ID:	182717

    So the question: Since WW start out with too high of antimony to get to DanT’s optimal antimony alloy of 97.0 / 1.5 / 1.5, and since I have that 'nugget' of equalizing tin and antimony in my head, I’m wondering if I added 2% tin to the WW I have, would that come close to Tom’s calculations and even-out the tin and antimony, and would that be fit for GG bullets sized .001 over groove? I’m afraid I know part of the answer since these WWs are from the 1960s and reputedly have higher antimony than today’s WWs. But thought I'd ask.

    Obviously I’m looking for a way to avoid the expense of buying pure lead or even 16:1 or 20:1. Buying linotype would not be any better on the pocketbook.
    Best Regards,
    John

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    John, I can't help ya. Chill Will and Leadpot can though, of that I'm pretty sure. I just stay away from wheel weights because the get too complicated for my little mind to figure out and manage. But those guys make'em work.

    I am, however, happy to see you fully addicted to BPCRs. Addictions like that make me feel warm and fuzzy all over. There is still hope for this world yet.

    Good luck,
    Brent

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    John.

    Beltfedarnie on the Shiloh forum would be a good guy to ask about WW GG bullets also. He uses that alloy and does quite well with it at the 1K matches. Ask Arnie what he uses for his GG .40. My use for the WW alloys are just for curiosity what the alloy does for ogive setback and deformation when the charge goes off and how the different ww alloys allow the PP bullets to fully expand filling the grooves. I have a bunch of WW ingots that go way back into the late 60's but they are for future use incase I cant get lead.

    Kurt

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