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Thread: Case trimmer vs File Trim Die

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    In either the lyman 46 or 47 manual, If I recall correctly, it talks of using them for normal length trimming. Which is where I first learned of search.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    What is the benefits or detractors of a sizing trim die, or a NON-sizing die for my intended application?

  3. #23
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    Trim dies may be confusing to some people. Sometimes they are confuising to me.

    I had a Redding .40-65 trim die that had exactly the same internal dimensions as a Redding FL sizing die. The only difference was the die permitted you to trim an over length case with a file.
    I have maybe 2 dozen or more file trim dies made by RCBS. All of these dies except one are the same size as a FL die except in the neck. The neck is .010 larger than the neck of a RCBS FL die. The one RCBS trim die that is different is a 45-70 trim die and it is the same size as a FL die.
    I also have a few Pacific and CH trim dies. They all have the over size neck but size the rest of the case body.
    I think the point of the body sizing is the case is pretty much squeezed back to normal dimensions so when it is trimmed you get the correct length case.
    If you trim a case and then size it the case will get longer and it might need more trimming according to the numbers in the manual.
    Based on my experience, when fired, a case may get shorter by .005 to .007. When it is resized it will get the missing .005 to .007 back plus any stretching that occurred when fire formed.
    If you trim a fired case then resize it it may still be too long.

    The oversize neck allows you to run the case through the FL die and size everything without the neck of the case being worked twice.
    I do not use trim dies to trim cases. I use trim dies to form cut off way over length cases using a saw. For me it is more accurately a cut off die. The fine trimming is done in a case trimmer.
    I have no real use for a trim die with the same neck as a FL die. Since I don't trim in them I could form the cases in a FL die.

    There is one other use I have found for one or two trim dies - the 38-55 trim die made by RCBS in particular.
    The .38-55 barrel groove diameters and therefore the bullet diameters vary from .375 to about .382. Most brass is about .010 thick and Starline brass is .007 thick.
    The SAAMI chambers are too small to use a groove diameter bullet for the maximum SAAMI groove diameters with standard WW or similar brass.
    Using the .38-55 trim die with its over size neck it will size a case to be a good fit for the bullet with a Starline case and a .380 to .382 bullet. The normal .38-55 FL die makes the loaded round look like the snake that swallowed a bowling ball.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bazoo View Post
    What is the benefits or detractors of a sizing trim die, or a NON-sizing die for my intended application?
    Since you desire a simple non-thinking way to trim cases it should work ok.
    However you still have to lube the case like you are going to size it. Once you get it in the die you have to file off the end of some cases and not others.
    Then remove the case from the die. You have to make sure you do not get the brass particles into the die before the next case goes in for a trim.
    After trimming the case you have to deburr it and then size it again in your FL die to get the neck sized down to hold the bullet. See how redundant it is for trimming?

    If for some reason you get a trim die that matches the neck of a FL die you still have the under size neck to expand. That is not a very big deal if you have Lyman M dies or the 3rd expander die normally found with a set of dies for a straight wall case. It is not so hot with a normal 2 die set.

    Here is a summary
    All the trim dies that I own size the case body. Two of them also size the neck just like a FL die with no expander. The rest of the dies size the case necks but leave them .010 over size.

    I have never seen a trim die that does not size the body.
    EDG

  4. #24
    Boolit Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    EDG, thank you for that information. That puts a whole new prospective on my idea.

    I suppose, unless I could find a die, that does not size the brass, and would be oversized enough that I would not need to lube the cases to insert, then it would be more of a pain than its worth.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    The redding die says it does not resize the case. This might be just what im thinking. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/532...-30-winchester

  6. #26
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    I read that same thing before I bought the .40-65 die and I was disappointed. I should have complained.
    Redding's 40-65 die is dimensioned for the original 40-65 which used a .406 bullet. The die neck measures .416 inside diameter. If the case wall is .0085 thick you get a case neck with a .399.

    Modern .40-65s have a .408 groove diameter and I use .410 bullets. Both Lyman and RCBS dies have a .421 ID in the neck so they size the case down to .404 still too small.

    Because the Redding .40-65 trim die was so small I had little use for it. Had it been .010 larger than my .416 ID FL die it would have been .426 and would have been just right for a sizer.

    I recommend that you interrogate Redding's customer service tech over the phone carefully. I did not find Redding's statement to be accurate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bazoo View Post
    The redding die says it does not resize the case. This might be just what im thinking. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/532...-30-winchester
    EDG

  7. #27
    Boolit Master lawboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mold maker View Post
    Started with a Forester, but didn't like the collet system of shell holders. Got a Lyman with the universal chuck and have used it for decades. I did purchase the drill driven arbor shaft to aid my arthritis a few years ago.
    I don't understand the problem some folks report about mouths being out of square. If you fully seat the case and have a proper pilot how can it cut out of square?
    Ditto. I have the same setup. I have a few trim dies. I have never used any of them.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    I wonder if the sizing of the die is due to it being an old caliber?

    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    I read that same thing before I bought the .40-65 die and I was disappointed. I should have complained.
    Redding's 40-65 die is dimensioned for the original 40-65 which used a .406 bullet. The die neck measures .416 inside diameter. If the case wall is .0085 thick you get a case neck with a .399.

    Modern .40-65s have a .408 groove diameter and I use .410 bullets. Both Lyman and RCBS dies have a .421 ID in the neck so they size the case down to .404 still too small.

    Because the Redding .40-65 trim die was so small I had little use for it. Had it been .010 larger than my .416 ID FL die it would have been .426 and would have been just right for a sizer.

    I recommend that you interrogate Redding's customer service tech over the phone carefully. I did not find Redding's statement to be accurate.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Be careful and don't forget to lube the case if the trim die also full length resizes or you will stick a case. I fond out the hard way.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    Lightload, thank you. I definitely do not want a die that sizes, and I dont want to have to lube. I always full length size for my 30-30, and I am thinking I can trim after I size in my normal sizing die.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    It is true that it is an old cartridge and the neck sizes but the die was new production bought about 15 years ago when BPCR was at its peak.
    You might be overlooking the fact that ALL of my trim dies size the body. That includes a RCBS .30-30 trim die.
    I have never seen a 7/8-14 trim die that did not size the body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazoo View Post
    I wonder if the sizing of the die is due to it being an old caliber?
    EDG

  12. #32
    Boolit Master dbosman's Avatar
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    I'm surprised no one mentioned a safe hack saw for cutting cases in a trim die.
    File or grind the teeth off one side of a hack saw blade. That side goes against the die.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Many quality saw blades have a wave set such that it is not really possible to easily grind off one side of the blade to make it safe.
    Rather than do that I modify a blade to fit my saber saw and drop a washer over the case neck to protect the top of the trim die.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbosman View Post
    I'm surprised no one mentioned a safe hack saw for cutting cases in a trim die.
    File or grind the teeth off one side of a hack saw blade. That side goes against the die.
    EDG

  14. #34
    Boolit Master dbosman's Avatar
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    Cool, I have a stash of ol.... vintage hack saw blades.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    I'll check my trim die, pretty sure it sizes though.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master

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    The easiest way to grind the set off a hacksaw blade is with a surface grinder. set it on a piece of paper and feed down. If you want real accurate shim under back of blade to bring it to height. Another reason these dies size the body is to provide a load pressure to get reliable results and to help keep the case from spinning in the die when cutting it. The sizing provides down force tacing play out of the press and set up making for more accurate work

  17. #37
    Boolit Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    I would think, that the die body would not have to size the casing, just the neck, to keep things from going askew when trimming. I havent contacted any of the companies about it yet, but I plan to at some point. Been working on other projects of resent.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    I like a Lee trim cutter in a drill press. Accurate, very fast and low cost.
    Getting old is the best you can hope for.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    I have, like and (occasionally) use several file trim dies. I won't bother to say how I use them because each of us has his own reasons and methods, mine are no more important than any others.

    I find that dies trim my cases at least as consistent and square as my lathe trimmer and, usually, get it done a little faster, but speed is rarely important in my rifle hand loading. IF cases aren't too long to safely fit a chamber - and few are - the biggest value in uniformly trimmed cases is consistent crimps. But, for handguns ... I know of no way to quickly trim a pile of handgun cases in order to get consistent crimps than using trim dies.

    So far as I KNOW, all trim dies are bored within the same tolerances as FL sizers so they would work as a sizer without decap and expanding stems.

    My trim dies are case hardened like glass. Files glide over my dies like wet tires over highway glare ice and make no more change than to burnish the surface.

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