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Thread: 30-06 M2 bullets

  1. #101
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    I'm done here.

    Edward, thank you for the sincere comments. After 42 years in the military I probably should have learned something, eh. Having served in the infantry, armored cavalry and Special Forces which included a lot of training on different weapons up through depot/corp level maintenance and repair along with training US and foreign personnel on all sorts of weapons around the world for years I should have learned something....eh. Having contracted for 3 years maintaining, TIing over 1,000 foreign weapons along with training Marines, Soldiers and CBs on those weapons I probably might have learned something.....eh. Having competed in High Power matches over 30 years shooting the M1903, the M1, the M14 and the M16 I might have learned something about them.....eh. Having trained foreign solders in the use of the M1, the M1 Carbine, the M3A1 the M1918, the AK47, the SKS and the RPD and then led them into harms way I might have had the "incentive" to learn something about them....eh. I have done my time in combat as an infantryman and as an SF Weapons NCO.

    Yes I have the awards and decorations to prove it. I'm rather proud of my service. Some would say I've "walked the walk".....

    Attachment 193954

    I also was an Advanced Firearms Instructor for a state board on police standards and training. I conducted firearms, tactical and officer survival training to LEOs in a three county area. I might have learned something there also....eh.

    No, I am not an "expert" on everything military, but I do know and have learned quite a bit about the weapons and ammunition I talk about. I also am constantly seeking to learn more, to learn more factually that is. You won't see me discussing submarines, aircraft carriers or any kind of boat with Sailors. You won't see me discussing B52s, B1s F16s, etc. with Airman and pilots. Nope, not an "expert" on everything military. Just knowledgeable on infantry and special ops weapons used by the Army and foreign nations because I have, indeed, "been there, done that"........

    Larry Gibson
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 04-24-2017 at 03:17 PM.

  2. #102
    Boolit Grand Master



    M-Tecs's Avatar
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    Larry Gibson, Scharfschuetze and Outpost75 really enjoyed your posts and I learned a great deal on this subject. Thanks guys.

  3. #103
    Boolit Master
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    Remember this particular snide remark?

    "Again MGs lack of experience and incorrect assumptions would lead to just about every "military on the planet" laughing at him. He has absolutely no idea nor 1st hand experience of what a 173 gr FMJBT at 2550 to 2640 fps can do at close range to an enemy combatant compared to any 5.56 projectile"

    I never mentioned the 5.56 except to point out to your buddy that comparing the 5.56 to the .30 caliber cartridges under discussion was apples vs oranges.
    I compared extremely similar .30 cartridges and bullets. The M80 Ball being the closest equivalent to the M2 Ball.
    The M118 LR version is the closest modern equivalent to M1 Ball and its wounding effect is a direct result of its open point construction. If the M118 in its previous incarnations are still in regular use let me know.
    As for reading about wounding effects of M1 Ball in North Africa, you were not there either and can only have read about the fighting there in WW2. If you have read detailed reports of the wounding effect of M1 Ball by all means share them.
    You interject the 5.56 as a strawman argument since we were discussing the .30 and 7.62 NATO rifles not the 5.56 assault rifles.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Bi_e5JXbxIw_aQ

    As far as I'm concerned you are an internet source no more likely to be correct than the study I posted which was researched by a PHD at the USAF Academy.
    If you have dissected any victims and photographed the wound channels let us know, if you then cooked them and ate them you should keep that to yourself.

    The chamber pressures and velocity figures of FA Palma Match M1 Ball were compiled by people with more knowledge and certainly more cartridges to test than you could have, and back in the day when the ammunition was fresh, and despite your love affair with the strain gauge system I reserve the right to have my doubts about its accuracy.

    Maybe you are somehow PO'ed because I proved that despite what amounts to urban myth Garand did not design his gas operated rifle as a .276 but rather modified his .30 Garand T1 to take the .276 cartridge rather than the other way around.

    You may well have a mountain of useful information locked up in that swollen pate, but don't expect anyone to take your every word as gospel just because you expect it.

  4. #104
    Boolit Master
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    PS to the above

    "Since the severity of a wound is an abstract quality, open to individual interpretation and judgment and hence to consequent error, it was necessary to establish another criterion by which to judge the degree of disability sustained. The ultimate disposition of the patient seemed to offer a more reasonable basis for this estimation. All wounded, therefore, were separated into three groups depending upon whether the nature of the wound allowed the patient to be returned to duty from the first or from the rear echelon or whether it necessitated his evacuation to the United States. It is recognized that this is an arbitrary standard and open to the criticism that it is also an index of medical care; nevertheless, it is a factual and objective measure of the relative effect of weapons in the living wounded.

    A fairly comprehensive description of the common types of Japanese weapons used on Bougainville has already been presented (pp. 289-292). From wound examination alone, it was never possible to distinguish the caliber of rifle or machinegun bullets nor the size of explosive shells. It was frequently impossible to judge with any accuracy whether the wound had been produced by a bullet or grenade shell or bomb fragment. "

    http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksd...s/chapter5.htm

    Got anything similar from the North African Campaign?
    Any detailed scientific examination of wounds of Italian and German Casualties would have been examinations of still living wounded prisoners undergoing medical treatment.
    At Bougainville US forces killed the Japanese at a rate of 36 Japanese dead for every American killed, though that is in large part due to air support and superior artllery. The Japanese 7.7 cartridge used a 175 gr bullet at a bit lower velocity than the M1 Ball.
    Rifle fire accounted for several times as many wounds as machinegun fire.

  5. #105
    Boolit Master

    skeet1's Avatar
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    Privi Partisan (PPU)makes a 150 gr. FMJ that I believe is a copy of the M2 ball bullet. Powder Valley lists a Privi Partisan 150 gr. bullet however I don't know if this is the same bullet, I think it might be. This is the listing from their web page.
    PPB30MC150 PRVI .308/30 CAL 150 GR FMJ (100) Yes $24.44

    Ken

  6. #106
    Boolit Master
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    Here's information on the 1919A6 and why the proper sized bushing in the gas booster is necessary for proper function with any particular ammunition type.
    http://www.m1919tech.com/23255.html

    The Israelis converted many 1919A6 guns to use the 7.62 and 7.92 each requiring a different bushing size. The Bushing for the M1 Ball was not the same size as the bushing for M2 Ball.
    Not sure where Ollie got the A6 guns given to the Contras.

  7. #107
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Multigunner. I sure wish you would just hang up the phone and quit. You continual posting serves no useful purpose. You are not winning friends and influencing people.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  8. #108
    Boolit Master
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    "You are not winning friends and influencing people. "
    Is that your only reason for visiting this board, I'd have thought attempting to shift through available information in order to learn was far more important.

    When it was mentioned that heavy ball was produced specifically for use in 1919A6 guns used by the Contras I wondered why. It took only a minute or so to find out by looking somewhere other than this thread which has proven less than informative in many respects.
    The 1919A6 due to its lighter weight barrel required gas booster orifices of different sizes to fine tune the mechanism to operate properly with bullets of different weights. A 1919A6 with the orifice intended for M1 Ball would not function very well when M2 Ball was used and vice versa. The FN FAL has an adjustable gas system to allow the user to fine tune the rifle to best functioning with various bullet weights under different climactic conditions. I've fired an FAL adjusted for M80 Ball with match grade Winchester heavy ball and it nearly ripped the rims off on extraction.
    Apparently a one size fits all attitude when it comes to ammunition just isn't always feasible. The M14 has a very flexible gas system, probably the best out there when it comes to digesting different bullet weights and pressure curves, the Garand is less flexible thus the aftermarket adjustable gas tube plugs that many have found necessary when using heavy bullets.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check